Expanding Digital Identity Through Community Driven Virtual Fashion with Nirmala Shome of the Fabricant
Episode Notes:
The runway is going virtual, empowering new creators and breaking industry boundaries through community- driven digital fashion.
In this episode I chat with Nirmala Shome, the Head of Marketing and Growth at a digital fashion house, The Fabricant, to break down what that means, how they’re trying to build a new fashion industry where everybody participates and profits while leveraging Blockchain and Augmented reality, how creativity is transcending beyond physical apparel, and the role of fashion in gaming.
Brands like Adidas, Puma, Under Armor, Vogue, Atari, and High Snob society have worked with the Fabricant to bring their brands to the virtual world in some way. Back in 2019, The world’s first piece of digital couture created by The Fabricant and worn by Johanna Jaskowska sold for $9,500. Wild, I had to know more from Nrimala’s experience.
With over 15 years experience across digital agencies, e-commerce platforms, and immersive startups, Nirmala has honed expertise as a digital producer, community builder and storytelling marketer for emerging technologies having worked in advertising and digital production in both Melbourne and New York.
Learn why major luxury brands are now investing in digital-only clothing and products tailored for virtual worlds and metaverse environments. Gain strategic insights on co-creation, authenticity, and digital ownership from a leader guiding a fashion startup through rapid technological shifts.
In this episode we cover:
02:00 Nirmala's Career Journey and Transition into Digital Fashion
05:00 Exploring the Potential of Digital Technology in Fashion
09:00 The Shift from Traditional Marketing to Digital Marketing
12:08 The Journey from Australia to New York and Europe and their different work environments
16:08 The Impact of Digital Technology on Fashion Industry
20:04 The Role of Community in Web 3.0
23:06 The Influence of Different Work Cultures on Career
27:02 The Evolution and Future of Digital Fashion
30:40 The Challenges and Opportunities in Digital Fashion
33:50 The Role of Gaming in the Future of Digital Fashion
38:00 The Impact of Digital Fashion on Consumer Behavior
41:50 The Intersection of Fashion, Culture, and Community
44:08 The Role of Blockchain in Digital Fashion
48:00 The Ethical Considerations in Digital Fashion
50:08 The Transition from Community to Marketing and Growth
54:50 The Future of Metaverse and Digital Fashion
If any of these topics excite you, then join us as we explore digital fashion! What do you think, would you buy, use or create digital fashion?
Referenced on the Episode:
Guest Bio: Nirmala Shome
Nirmala Shome joined The Fabricant in 2020 and has worked across product, production and now heading up the Marketing and Growth pillar to focus on The Fabricant's mission to grow and nurture the new digital only fashion ecosystem. She started off in advertising and digital production working across Melbourne and New York and now is based in Amsterdam.
In her past web2 life she worked on product innovation teams at Spotify, Google Creative Lab, Xbox, Nike, Samsung, Apple, and more to deliver consumer facing solutions for emerging tech. She now spends her time thinking about web 3 ecology and how to steward the new equitable economy.
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Ep 06: Expanding Digital Identity Through Community Driven Virtual Fashion with Nirmala Shome of the Fabricant
Ariba Jahan: [00:00:00] Hey, Nirmala. I'm so excited that we're finally doing this. , ever since we were on that panel together with Michelle and Jake about the metaverse, I was like, we have to get Nirmala on the podcast and to just talk about all things metaverse, digital fashion, and like all the things you're interested in.
So thank you so much for making the time today.
Nirmala Shome: No, thank you. And same. I'm also excited. I agree. I think like we're meant to chat, so it's great that it's happening.
Ariba Jahan: I think a great place to start could be sharing your origin story. You know, you've had such a interestingly rich career, dabbled in so many different roles and industries. I think we'd just love to hear that.
Nirmala Shome: Yeah, definitely. So I think, you know, my origin story, I guess I'll go back to when I first graduated, which was a long time ago now. but when I first graduated, I was in Australia. I just finished a media communication arts degree. And I was just trying to figure out.
Like I was interested in marketing, interested always in digital, I'd just done a thesis in digital arts. I was really [00:01:00] interested in the creative potential of digital technology.
Ariba Jahan: and that's at a time where digital technology or like what you were looking into was new, right? Like not a lot of people were.
Nirmala Shome: Yeah, it was definitely early days. Like, you know, I remember for one of my projects, I had to go into second life and interview people, I went to the American second life and I remember it being such a like crazy experience and yeah. So new, like it was still really early days for all that type of thing.
\ I was so fascinated by it, especially like the potential of interactive technology, interactive art. but obviously that was such a small. Space back then that I ended up my first job, which I managed to get through just cold emailing with ridiculous subject lines.
Like I have what it takes and things like that to get my first interview at Clemenger BBDO, which was actually one of Australia's top advertising agencies and somehow got passed along a chain. to their digital media team.[00:02:00] And my first job was actually a digital analyst, doing reporting for like direct marketing campaigns.
So like banner ads, email campaigns, Google, and media. And yeah, I started off just doing, massive Excel spreadsheets reports on conversion or click through rates, all that stuff. So that was like how I . Was how I found my way into it, and then got deeper into that world, but more into media buying.
So actually working with media companies and then got into account management. And then at that time, I felt like I was moving further away from what I loved, which was actually like working on the digital. Create the creation of the digital content itself. , you were
Ariba Jahan: analyzing it, not necessarily
Nirmala Shome: analyzing it, , buying media for it, but not involved in the creative part.
And what I was really interested in was the, you know, the creative, the creation of it and how it was created. So I actually then moved into project management or being a producer. And that was kind of, I think where I really fell in love with, being actually able to like, how do you produce work?
And at that time, obviously it was like. Banner ads or Facebook social [00:03:00] apps or email. So it wasn't anything too crazy, but I still really enjoyed that, you know, just having a hands on, being hands on with the team and actually make kind of building something. and I, and I think that was always something that I love to do.
I then was able to, during my time. Actually work on things like apps and websites and e commerce sites. And so I did get more experience and then eventually got the bug, the itch to leave Australia and go overseas. managed to get a job through the help with some friends in New York, had a digital agency, which was like a real, a big leap for me.
I'm kind of a leap of faith, quit my job. yeah, went over there and ended up staying in New York for five years. And I think when I was in New York, I kind of started off as at a digital agency, really working on delivering like massive e com platforms, loyalty programs, CMS is all that's like super technical stuff applications.
I had a lot of experience doing big, kind of these big kind of builds, but again, I had that feeling of like, it was quite mechanical, losing a bit of that [00:04:00] creativity. Um, you're really kind of rolling out these large scale platforms. So I moved to a very like boutique product design studio.
This also, who are actually at. have now been bought by instrument, which is another big product agency in the U S. and that was, that was kind of, I think one of the best jobs I had where I was working still in project management, but like what this also did was they would do really high, like conceptual, like product design for product innovation teams at Google, at Spotify, Nike, at Apple.
X Box, like we got to work on the X Box, interface design prototype. It did some amazing stuff with the Google creative lab team. and that was really where I got exposed to like all this really new emerging tech, like stuff where the teams, they were prototyping, they had this technology, but they didn't know how to bring it to a consumer level or how to present it to consumers.
So a lot of it was like machine learning tools, trying to put them into like playful interfaces or playful experiences that people could actually. Interact with and kind of, get something out of just to really [00:05:00] test the waters. So right. Then you had
Ariba Jahan: like the analyst background too, and then you were able to connect those dots of like, how do you take something so new and technical and then reach the masses?
Or like, how do you scale that and market that and communicate that?
Nirmala Shome: Yeah, well, I think, you know, like at this. point, a lot of what we did actually never saw the light of day. A lot of it was really like early stage. Like there were definitely a few things that did get out. Like we worked on, some Google AI music projects that are actually made it into like the live environment, but at this stage it was really like about just like trying to, yeah, like trying to create engagement.
So yeah, definitely connecting it to engagement. and, you know, product design is so, it really is
I think like the best product design is often quite playful and actually kind of crosses into entertainment. Like, yes, it has to be functional, but what actually really gets you and what I think humans really respond to is that sense of play and engagement. And so. It was kind of interesting, because we really push that boundary of not just doing something. Okay, we have a goal. [00:06:00] We need to get people to use something, but how do we kind of bring that high quality, like, level of play and engagement to kind of go above and beyond?
but so that was a really interesting experience. And then after my time in New York, I was like, okay, time to move on to the next thing, move back to Australia for a couple of years, was freelancing, doing various random things in that time, but then got that itch again to move overseas and this time to Europe, which I'd kind of been to. A few times on vacation and was really fascinated too, but like, what would it be like to work and live in Europe?
Like obviously very different to Australia and America. So managed again through a friend to get a job with the fabricant where I am now. A digital fashion house, which at the time when I. First kind of came across 'em. I was like, I really have no, I really don't understand this world at all. But I was like, look, I wanna move.
They're looking for a producer. Let me see what I can do. I had a great first conversation with one of the founders, Kerry, and yeah, it was kind of just like [00:07:00] a little bit hooked with this. Again, it was like this super new emerging tech. they have a really compelling vision where they knew that digital fashion was coming.
They knew that the world would, like, it wasn't there yet, but it was coming. The world would have to embrace it with the way things are going in the fashion industry. they were just kind of like super early. And so they kind of hooked me with that and I was working with them and we did some incredible projects.
they were working with some amazing clients at a time. I actually was lucky enough to work on a project for off white with Virgil Abloh, directly, which is really amazing. and you know, some other incredible clients that they had. During the pandemic, because it was like really the time when brands were like, okay, we need to find digital solutions because our physical production is not as kind of, was it a standstill?
So that was like a really incredible time to be working at the fabricant, moved over and yeah, have been here since, since 2020. Had my first child here as well. So that was also a fun experience, challenging.
Ariba Jahan: And pandemic baby too,
Nirmala Shome: right? Yeah. [00:08:00] Pandemic baby. Exactly.
my journey at the fabricant, you know, it started actually before the fabric and officially launched their platform, which was like the web three enabled digital fashion co creation and minting platform.
With a marketplace, you know, we're ability and I helped them at first kind of launch that platform. So I was working more on the product side and then, as we kind of were growing the product out after we've done a couple of launches, I was really fascinated with the growing kind of discipline around Web three communities and how they were so kind of powerful at that early stage, right? Everyone was kind of talking about, like, how do you harness this power? How do you like work with communities? You're really building a product that's so deeply connected to them. And so I really, yeah, again, was like, okay, how, how do I get deeper into this community world? Because the way I saw it was like focusing on the product, it was still really interesting to me, and I still love working on product and product design.
but you're really kind of focused on delivering, features and values to, to service this product, right? Your success is really about the product success. [00:09:00] And I really wanted to kind of broaden my focus to think about. the community success, you know, because what the growing community essentially, you know, there could be many products and services that come from a growing community that could be supported by a growing community, as we see with many other projects, you know, it starts with one product, but then they have to spin up new ones or as the community changes, as it grows, there are different needs.
So I was kind of like, how do I go beyond just product? and think about building for community at a larger scale. So doing activations and events and also learning and feedback loops and all that interesting stuff. yeah, I was head of community, help build the community team, help build up our discord, do events, have run many events, IRL.
As well as, on online events and yeah, have, have been working community. Really love that. And most recently a kind of transitioning to this marketing and growth role, which kind of encompasses community within it, but then also has a focus on yeah, marketing and acquisition brand [00:10:00]
Ariba Jahan: marketing,
Nirmala Shome: right?
Exactly. So it's really about the storytelling from the fabric and from our partners, from our collaborators. You know, how we do that across, you know, all the different platforms. What's our strategy when we go to market, how do we promote things? How do we acquire new people? How do we bring them to the right places?
And then on the community side, it's really like, okay, how do we keep them? How do we retain them? How do we make sure that we're creating space they want to return to? because definitely, especially in the web3 space, the community is such powerful. thing to have, you know, like the Azuki drop was a recent telling example of that, where they were able to sell out their collection, primarily through their existing holder base.
And I think that's as much as many people, obviously there's criticism about the drop and the art and things like that. But the fact that they're able to do that in this current market, it's still a fairly decent, ETH price is pretty, it's pretty amazing that their community came back and supported them through that.
you really see like the power of community come through in web three, I think more than the way you [00:11:00] see it through come through for like, you know, celebrities and fandom. I think that's kind of the comparable.
Ariba Jahan: I'd love to go back to the beginning a thread I keep hearing is you worked in Australia, New York, and then Europe.
by working across so many different markets and work culture, like what were some key differences that really rise to the top when you think about. Those three different regions.
Nirmala Shome: Yeah. I mean, I think like, it's interesting, I think like, and also working in the industries I worked in, there was definitely, it was always like high pressure.
Tight deadline environments, like working at ad agencies, at agencies in general. the way that pressure is handled is, is very different. Like I say, I'd actually say Australia is quite comparable to US work culture in the sense that people work really hard in Australia. there is kind of like a real emphasis on this, like, I think people pride themselves on being like this, a hard working individual, I would say, though, definitely in the US, I, felt like there was [00:12:00] more of a, competition, like within the workspace, you know, cause maybe that is just a reality of like scarce, jobs and things like that.
Yeah, exactly. And like having to really prove yourself, especially in a city like New York, right, where it is such a competitive environment. So definitely felt that a little bit more, but I felt like Australia and us very comparable in terms of like, you really bring your A game and you're a hard worker and you really pride yourself on that.
moving to Europe, it's like, I would say definitely people still work hard, but it's not as intense for sure. Like people really take their holidays and their break time very seriously. and I think generally that culture is changing globally. Like burnout is a real thing now and it has real consequences, not just for companies, if they have.
Employees on burnout, it's extremely like, it's a huge issue for them. So I do feel like globally that general culture is changing, but, I'd say in Europe, it is definitely people respect that a lot more. I would also say, and what's really interesting is how decisions are made culturally, like it definitely [00:13:00] in even from country to country.
It's really, really unique. Like, I think, How feedback is given. The Dutch are known to be very direct. So if you're in Netherlands, where I am, feedback is given pretty directly, like in day to day life and from clients to feedback, which actually is, is really great it means you kind of cut through all the stuff and then it's like, okay, what do we need to change?
What do we need to do? Let's move forward. So I do actually really appreciate that. It can be a little bit jarring at first, and I think especially coming from an American work culture where actually it's not very direct, There's
Ariba Jahan: the sandwich method. There's how do I warm up to getting there? there's definitely a lot of strategies people put into place to be able to give feedback. And even then, sometimes it's not the full feedback.
Nirmala Shome: Yeah, like the amount of times we'd be like working on something and then You know, the last round comes in and the clients are just like, we don't, we can't do this.
We don't like it. And it's like, how did we get this far on the process? And I think it's a real cultural thing. So I think, that's one thing that's great about Netherlands, but obviously that's, [00:14:00] it's very different for each country. So. You know, working with countries like in the UK or in Sweden and Italy, like all very different. But I love that actually. that's kind of why the reason I wanted to travel is like that you get to experience that and really see it and see that it can be done a billion different ways and not one way is necessarily right or wrong. some might be more efficient than others, but there's also something.
You know, nuanced about, okay, this is how people get it done here in their own way. So it's cool to be able to kind of witness that.
Ariba Jahan: Yeah. And then, like you said, in the beginning, it might be jarring and then you kind of have to adopt those methods. And then if you move again, then you have to kind of unlearn and unlearn the new culture, way of working and, unspoken and spoken norms.
Nirmala Shome: Right. Yeah, exactly. And there's so many unspoken norms, you realize, which, and it's also interesting how you kind of yourself shift in that process as well. Like you do definitely have to assimilate a little bit. Wherever you go, but then there's also ways that you can still [00:15:00] preserve yourself and kind of way how you came up and how you did things.
and it is nice. I think sometimes, like, especially if you kind of were, you know, you grew up somewhere and you kind of a really like always felt like, yes, this is how we all do things when you come out of that context to really witness like, Oh, okay, this is really unique. Actually, this, this feels unique to me here.
Because it's a very like something culturally from where I grew up. So, yeah, what
Ariba Jahan: has been the weirdest unspoken norm that you picked up on and you're like, this is a thing here. I just don't
Nirmala Shome: understand. And I think one thing that I've picked up on that actually is not so much that it's.
It's a norm. It's more like something that I just wish I had done earlier is actually just the, the being really direct thing. I think like a lot of my, obviously early career too, like, you know, when you first start working, you're really trying to be like you know, please everyone, make sure everyone's happy with what you're doing.
And obviously this comes with like, as you get older too, you kind of just have less time to do that. And you kind of need to focus on what is, important. But [00:16:00] I think actually being really direct, whether it's like in the way you do emails and obviously direct in the sense, like just very clear and very to the point, if you don't like something, it's actually okay to say that you just have to explain why, or if you don't understand something, it's okay to do that too.
I think that that's definitely something I've felt a lot more here. And I think maybe now when I communicate with. People that may be in the U. S. or Australia, it can come off as a little bit as more direct. but I actually think it's just, something that I wish I had done more of, even when I was younger.
Even though maybe at the time I felt a bit like, oh, I can't behave like this because I'm like a junior or
Ariba Jahan: so and so. And you're a woman and you're brown. Yeah, of course. So I think, I think those things play a huge role. Like, cause when you're even using the word direct, right? I'm feeling like, oh, like the word mean.
Comes to my mind immediately when I hear the word direct and that's because we've been socialized. Right. We've been taught from a young age that women, [00:17:00] especially if you're brown or Asian, you can't be direct because it's mean or like, when we see directness personified. Or emulated by men.
It's usually, given in a very mean and cutthroat way. So I feel like there's a failure of, of the way it's been associated where men are, you know, like we've, we've seen it. Men are bosses and they are direct. women, um, are bossy when they do the same things, same behaviors, and they're mean and cruel if they do the same things, right?
Like a man and a woman can literally say the same mean phrase and the woman is the one that's going to get categorized as mean and bitchy. And the man's going to be like, Oh, you know, that's just how he is. And, you know, a lot of, Hardworking or like successful men have to be that way. They're not all normal.
Like it's like normalized. And so I think what you're also sharing though, is like, that is a very American perception of directness of, feedback of behavior versus like what I'm [00:18:00] hearing is. what you've been saying is like, Hey, directness can be provided without being mean it's about clarity and clear communication so that we can all get to the same place that we're all trying to get to.
Right. And I think that is also what I'm picking up on in the way that you're describing
Nirmala Shome: it. Yeah, definitely. I, and that's it. I think it's also just honesty, like, cause also I think people, you know, maybe are scared to voice their. True opinion, because maybe it's like, well, maybe I don't get it. And so if I criticize it, is it me showing that or like question it? Am I like kind of revealing a little, you know, a vulnerability or something. And so often, you know, just even just being able to ask the question, like, why would we do it that way? Or why is this a solution? Sometimes it's hard to even ask that.
but I think just seeing other people. Ask it to me or like give that feedback to me at first. You're like, okay, well actually, yeah, it's a good point and we do need to explain it and, also being, it's really important to validate that stuff, obviously, before you go to market, before you bring anything [00:19:00] out into the world.
So I think it's also just like the honesty, Which I would argue is also maybe that the level of honesty is maybe is higher in at least in our team. I feel like, you know, we're a startup. We're a small company. we have a great, you know, founder led culture and they're very direct and down to earth.
And I think. We'll ask questions and really encourage us to ask questions and challenge. And, and I really appreciate that actually. And I think it makes it so much easier to then just be like, okay, actually, yeah, I don't understand this, or I don't think this is the best way to do it and not feel like, you know, you're causing like some kind of a drama that other people are going to be like, I can't believe they say, you know, it's just like, Oh yeah, cool.
That's, that's just part of the day. And then we move on and we solve it. that's definitely something I've picked up.
Ariba Jahan: that's really great. What's the size of fabricant?
Nirmala Shome: When I first started, I think it was 10 of us.
So it's super small on now. There's like 20 of us, which actually is, I really like that as a size actually, but we work with people all over the world. and that's also something that's really amazing as. That's come, I think,[00:20:00] through the pandemic. Remote work. So I
Ariba Jahan: feel like this could be, a perfect time to maybe tell us a little bit more about the fabricants.
I know when you look up the fabricant, it's, it's known as a digital fashion house, leading fashion industry towards a new sector of digital only clothing. Like, what does that mean? What do you all do? And when you say product, like what
Nirmala Shome: is the product? you, you know, that's kind of the line, I think that we've used for a long time, digital fashion house.
It's definitely evolving. You know, I think, digital fashion house, you know, like, I guess like the original vision was like, you know, a label, the way that a fashion house, a label is set up to produce physical clothing, the fabricant, we're really like, how do we set ourselves up to produce digital clothing and show the world that there is an industry for digital only clothing?
and that's kind of been their mission since day one, since they launched in 2018, where it was just Kerry and Amber, two of the founders, Amber being a fashion student who just managed to fight her way through. Fashion school and actually get her portfolio digital only [00:21:00] so to not produce physical collection, which at the time they were like, she almost didn't get past, but she fought for it because she believed in it.
And she also saw like a big issue was kind of just the waste of producing a collection, the cost, the waste, what's going to happen to it. and Kerry was actually, he's a 3d artist who was working in the ad industry and content industry. And I think that both of them kind of saw that, okay, well, there's powerful storytelling that can happen,
fashion is all about storytelling. It's all about creating beautiful visuals and you can really do that all digitally. And so they kind of set about showing the world how you could do this, through key visuals through dresser, they've kind of created the first digital only dress that was, auctioned on Ethereum for 10, 000 at the time, roughly about 10, 000, which was a huge milestone.
That's pretty huge. In 2018, obviously got all the headlines, everyone kind of talking about how ridiculous it was, what's happened, you know, all the kind of good and bad. Yeah. press that it created, that's been their mission since day one. And then, and since then they kind of brought on Adriana, another one of the co founders who [00:22:00] kind of heads up more of the commercial side and started growing the company, but first it was really just servicing physical fashion clients to help with their like digital transformation process.
So showing them how to use 3d tools, how to create their collections. And it really accelerated during the pandemic. obviously, cause they needed that support. But I think the fabricants goal was always, you know, like you said, how do we show the world that actually, you know, cause all those clients were still producing physical clothing.
They were just using digital internally. So it wasn't like it got beyond the buyers. Like, you know, that was it. so, but we still wanted to show the world, well, how can digital fashion stand alone on
Ariba Jahan: Can we back up for a second and talk about like, okay, so when you have a brand who creates physical clothing, physical fashion, what does it mean when they create a digital fashion item?
okay, so they learn the. The tools, the technology to create it, but like, then what happens? How do, how do I buy it? Where do I buy it? What do I, what do I use it for? Like, [00:23:00] what is that digital fashion?
Nirmala Shome: So I think the primary way that brands currently use it today is actually for their design process, prototyping, sampling process.
So right now. Oh, you know, back 10, 10 years ago,
traditionally how it was done is to produce a collection. You physically obviously had to make it. So you would send, you know, you'd send it to patent makers and create the patents and be several run throughs of just the patent itself, or you'd be, you know, testing out the garments. You'd probably be sending that around the world. The patent makers might be in Asia. They produce in the factory, literally sampling, testing materials, testing buttons, testing colors, testing trims, like everything. That process itself of just getting to a designed collection it's really expensive. It covers the whole world. Like it's a global kind of supply chain process. and actually you end up wasting a lot, right? Because you're still in an early stage of developing your prototyping and testing. A lot of it goes to waste. So what companies can now do is they can do that process in 3D. And it's super [00:24:00] powerful that you can kind of bring, so say you're creating a jacket. You does prototype designer all in 3d on different body shapes. You can kind of customize the body shapes. You can really try and get the fit, right, the shape, right. And then, you know, once you're kind of happy with that, you're able to maybe then get it physically sampled. So you're already cutting out a huge part of the process.
The other amazing thing you can do is actually that was what we worked with clients was. there's kind of the process of first getting the collection. Then you have, once you've kind of happy with the collection, you've got to produce it physically to kind of photograph and show to buyers. because then once what the buyers choose is ultimately what actually gets. Put into mass production. So again, you've still got this step of like, actually another round. There's another round. We actually go through buyers and they're actually like, okay, yeah, we're going to, we want to buy this. I want to confirm the colorways. So you could have made a jacket with 10 colorways. All of those had to be produced, but then only the black one is the one right through. So what you can do a digital again, um, is do as many colorways as you want. And [00:25:00] actually render out like photo realistic quality images, that you can actually show to buyers. So the buyers can even still be in that digital process with you. You can send them, you know, fabric samples, so they have a sense of the fabric, but still you're working primarily in digital. You haven't had to produce yet, maybe many physical of the item. And then once the buyers are like, okay. These are the ones that we want. That's when you go into physical sleep.
By that way, you're already delaying that process again and reducing a huge amount of waste. So much waste. Yeah. Yeah. And also a huge amount of cost. And also during the pandemic, literally just, it was not possible to do that because everything was shut down. so, so that was really like kind of what we were starting to do.
But again, you still stop. Before you get to the consumer, like the consumer is not saying any, any of this, they're just saying they're going to say the physical product. And so we would really try to think about, well, how do we go beyond that and get consumers engaging with digital fashion? Okay. And that was kind of when we launched the fabric and platform to focus on that.
And so now to answer your question, like [00:26:00] what can you now, so, you know, for brands that really want to engage in digital fashion beyond just like, This internal process, there are more ways that you can actually engage with it because people are kind of picking up, okay, there are more uses for digital fashion.
It's becoming more prevalent. So AR is a big one. we have an AR app. There's also several other companies that have their own dedicated AR apps where you can actually go and buy digital fashion or like try digital fashion on an AR is a big one.
Ariba Jahan: And do you try it on so that you can then order the physical item or do you just wear it in digital?
Nirmala Shome: Potentially. And that, and this was really interesting though, because, you know, the other kind of insight, in, social media obviously is that you have a lot of people buying clothes to wear for photos that maybe they wear once or twice, you know, like it's like, it's like, it also creates this kind of very wasteful behavior.
So, you know, there's, there's companies that literally were doing things like. Send us your photo and we'll dress you. So it looks like you're wearing it. Digital dressing was also a thing. It still is a thing, but not as much, but [00:27:00] AR is the form of digital dressing. And, you know, the technology is still developing.
So obviously the body tracking is not as good as face tracking, but it literally, it gets better. And better, every year, it's, it's incredible. Like how, like the advances they're making on it. And so I think AR eventually will become a substitute for a lot of people. Like for example, you know, being in the call with you, I can put on my digital outfit, I don't necessarily need to buy a jacket or buy some cool glasses or whatever it is, where my cool accessories and that's it.
And that's fine.
Ariba Jahan: Consumerism, right? Like then you stop perpetuating huge consumerism. So interesting. the other use that I have seen, and I'd love to know, cause I know fabricant does this is you guys have partnered with brands so that you can create, digital items that. Are then worn in immersive spaces.
Could you talk a little bit more about that? Like, where are people wearing this? Like what is an immersive space?
Nirmala Shome: Yeah, definitely. So I think like, I mean, AR is one, you know, one thing [00:28:00] we produce, but we also produce wearables for different metaverses. So, for Decentraland and Ready Play Me, which actually integrates with places like Spatial and many other kind of immersive experiences.
And that's where you basically can take, you know, take the item, the 3d item. Cause cause that's the other thing that
I think brands realized when you bring something into the 3d world as, as a 3d file, there's so much more you can do with it. So, you know, if you've got a physical jacket. You've got one physical jacket. What can you can photograph it? You can put it on someone and kind of video it. That's great. If you have a jacket in 3D, you can kind of duplicate it as many times. You can customize it as you like. you can also like bring it into different games. You can create content with it, you know, through simulation and VFX. and obviously now with all the web three stuff, there's a lot of stuff you can do just bringing it. On chain and kind of selling it, as a validated digital asset, you can really sell it. So I think brands are also just saying like, obviously you produce physical, but having that same asset as a 3d artifact is, is very [00:29:00] valuable. so even just. being able to produce fashion 3D, like one day that item could become physical. Who knows, you know, it's really up to what people want to do with it.
I
Ariba Jahan: mean, it sounds like that could be market testing. Like if you create a digital jacket and you release it into a bunch of different worlds and people, and you see it really takes off that it's like, I mean, maybe we do create the physical
Nirmala Shome: version.
Yeah. Exactly. And we, and when we design, we actually design everything and test it in unreal engine. So we're designing all this stuff to be supported by game engines. So we're kind of also building for the future where games, I mean, they already are the most dominant form of media that we all consume.
it will be gaming. we, we design everything so that it is game engine ready. And I, and I think that is something like future proofing. Your items. I think that's what a lot of brands realize too. Like the Nike drop, I mean, Nike just announcing them partnering with fortnight LVMH also, announcing them partnering with like epic, like these are.
these are game engines, you know, like it's really interesting to see these [00:30:00] massive brands now really embracing this. I mean,
fashion? Well, you know, this is one thing that, you know, the fabricant founders always say, the gaming.
Ariba Jahan: why has gaming and gaming culture become so important for
Nirmala Shome: fashion? the gaming.
World. It's like, it's massive. And I think like, if you don't work in the industry, you don't realize how massive it is, but actually it's huge. I don't work in gaming, but I do actually follow a lot of gaming kind of podcasts and read about it. Cause I just am really fascinated by it. it's huge.
Like
the amount of people that engage with games and spend money in games and their identities in games. I think this is a really critical thing. It's like, it's about your digital identity. Right. And so many games now are more than just a, Oh, come and play as this character and get through. It's about. connecting. They're social. It's really about finding a part of yourself that you didn't realize you had in your physical world. people build real time social communities in games and they want to express themselves and that's going to just become more and more and more. Predominant, and you need to dress those people. [00:31:00] They all need fashion. You know, they want to go beyond that. And if anything, they want to have options. Exactly. I want to have options. And I think, especially now, like it's all about being able to express yourself. So how you express yourself digitally is going to be huge, and I think that's where digital fashion is. Is the missing piece with that,
whatever they were in the physical and digital and even go beyond that, you know, What else can you do in the digital that you can't do in the physical? So and you can be so many different characters. So I think people's digital wardrobes.
We'll totally eclipse their physical wardrobes in the future. just because, and so we're building for that and that, you know, there's going to be thousands and thousands of brands and creators and people designing for games, there already is, I mean, it's already there.
It's not just coming, but you know, fortnight's, what they just released with their creator program is massive, you know, it's telling what did they launch? Well, they basically launched a platform where it's like, you can kind of create your own worlds within fortnight and upload your own assets.
So it's like you could build your own world. and they invested a lot of money into it. Like they invest a lot of their team into [00:32:00] it. And I think that's really powerful and telling of where they see it going.
You know, it's like they're building an ecosystem out for people to come and build on top of not just producing Fortnite
is, is a huge one. and there's many other games like that. And there'll be more spaces like that as the tech gets better. as people can access these on their phone or wherever they are. gaming is, is something we're definitely building for. And I think actually anyone working in media should be thinking about, like, I really think gaming will be the dominant media.
I mean, it is already, but maybe not for everyone, really it will be the dominant way we consume pop culture. who knows, maybe the next 5 10 years.
Ariba Jahan: when you think about where gaming is now versus where you can see the potential of gaming going. And by potential, I don't even mean like the technology isn't there, but more like...
Utility and the creativity of people wanting to use gaming as a media, co creating with gamers and co creating with creators of games, like what potential, like [00:33:00] could you paint a little bit of that hypothesis
Nirmala Shome: you're imagining? I think it will, they'll just become their own like economies, right? Like I think that that will be serviced by thousands of people creating content, creating experiences, creating, you know, and having their own currency. Right. Yeah. From these worlds. Exactly. Like, you know, you already see that with like, Roblox and Minecraft and Fortnite too, and many other games.
I think like there'll be like up work in game worlds, you know, where you can go and you can, there already is, this is the thing, all this stuff is already happening, but it may be, it's just happening on a more niche level. But yeah, I just believe they will become like their own little economies. And I don't mean like, you know, a game world might not necessarily feel like a fought, like a first person shooter.
It could be more like a Sims kind of social kind of thing as well. So I think there will be, you know, it's, it's not just going to be these. It's like, we're all going to be playing Battlefield or something, but, you know, we'll be you know, just like the merging between everyday life into like a gaming kind of environment or gaming context.
Like even now, [00:34:00] you know, if you did that in a metaverse, you're in like what you could call a game environment. game engine environment. but it's interesting, like the more that I do kind of events and meetups with people in like a spatial or a decentral and you kind of see like the benefits of it overdoing just a zoom call or something, right.
There are benefits. You can kind of be in a shared space. You can kind of break off into different things. You can all be looking at like, there's like stuff you can do together. And I think that context will also grow. So you'll also need to have your digital identity that you take with you to these different contexts as well.
Ariba Jahan: whenever I look up metaverse, I feel like everyone has their own definition of metaverse , how are you, or how is Fabricant defining metaverse?
Nirmala Shome: I don't know how the Fabricant define, that's, I won't speak on behalf of Fabricant
because I'm sure exactly how there's many ways, but I think the way I would personally define it it is essentially like a social virtual environment. And so for me, when I think about metaverse, I [00:35:00] don't actually necessarily think of high resolution graphics. Like I know that's one type of metaverse that is going to be like fully VR headset enabled.
But then I think there's also like. Uh, experience of metaverse that is kind of like what we already experience on, social platforms, essentially like virtual spaces, dedicated virtual spaces where people can come together, gather, be social, do actions together that isn't possible, in the physical world.
you know, you could kind of argue that,
Ariba Jahan: Like, is this a metaverse, what you and I are doing?
Nirmala Shome: I don't, I wouldn't say this is necessarily just because it's like, just the, maybe, I'm not sure, actually. I think it's more like,
Ariba Jahan: technically, we're not in a shared space, right?
Nirmala Shome: Like, or are we like, we are, I would say we are in a shared space, but I'd say this is still feels like.
A call, right? I think the other element is that there is an interface on it that has some kind of element of spatiality. Maybe. There's
Ariba Jahan: a, uh, spatial environment. Yeah. Or like, even like,
Nirmala Shome: yeah, like exactly a sense [00:36:00] of like, it has its own time. Like, you know, you think of a feed, right? You share your Twitter feed with all these other people.
There's a sense of time. There's a sense of, you know, like all that type of thing. And I think there are lo fi metaverses too. Like you find metaverses. It's on your mobile phone that are more like pixelated, but that's still kind of a lo fi experience. There's still a sense of like space. Um, there's still a sense of its own time in that world.
Like it, it kind of has its own, it governs, you know, it has its own like rules, like in the sense like, like. Physics or gravity or whatever you would call that in the virtual space. and so I think there's like a spectrum of these, like lo fi, very lo fi metaverses to like these very high resolution metaverses.
And obviously each one has different tech requirements and each one is good for different things. So the things like the events that we would plan in spatial are different to the events we have planned in decentralized and very different to the events we might plan and say a roadblocks, you know, and I think like each metaverse caters to a different type of experience.
there are many better versus there'll be even more. but I think it's, yeah, I think it's just ultimately like a virtual shared space with its [00:37:00] own, governing physics and, laws. I
Ariba Jahan: feel like this is making me think about, you know, the role of fashion and culture and community, you know, like we know fashion can't really exist without culture and then culture can't really exist without community.
And when fashion and community is Like how, how do you cultivate community? How do you cultivate connection? But then culture isn't something that you're cultivating. It's really driven by the people. So like, I guess I'm curious how you think about all of those for your role
Nirmala Shome: or, or from your world.
Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting. Like I actually do think, I actually think that, individuals. Uh, the culture starters, they start the culture and then it gets perpetuated into a mass culture. So I actually think like, for example, you know, like Paris fashion week happened a couple of weeks ago.
There was some incredible shows, you know, those were all cultural moments. They were kind of initiated by a brand that was also leveraging, obviously a lot of [00:38:00] cultural. other cultures and other ideas, but, you know, pushing that forward into the world creates a cultural moment that people pick up on and will replicate and it kind of gets, you know, spread, like obviously you'd need the community to like, otherwise it's just a moment in time.
Like if no one kind of responds to it, what is it? But I, but I really think, you know, there's, there was a great talk I saw recently with, but it was these two kind of artists, I guess, talking about the need to create images or visuals that were kind of visually, and they were actually talking about it in the context of Mars.
Ironically, they were talking about how Mars is like our next, big, it's really you know, they were kind of talking about how culture had felt like it was stagnating in the sense, like all the kind of images of the future that we're living now were created in like the nineties and eighties. we haven't really moved beyond that, you know, there hasn't really been a really powerful narrative that's moved us beyond that and how important it is to for people, you know, especially artists and creators and also, you know, cultural entities like musicians, all these [00:39:00] people and communities to really put out visionary images and visuals to really inspire, you know, to kind of get out of this like stagnating consumerism.
and so I think that's actually something that The Fabricant did really well, which is why, you know, we have such a great reputation and people know our visuals is that we were able to Put out really powerful visuals to showcase what digital fashion is. Otherwise, yeah, people don't get it, arguably I try to understand why.
But
when you can show someone an image of the world, what the future could look like with fashion, with whatever, which, whatever your story is, you're trying to tell it's really powerful. And that's, that is what creates culture, you know, these really powerful visuals. and I think a lot of communities are connected to an aesthetic, you know, that's where fashion becomes a part of it, you know, whether it's a symbolism, the music they all love, they all, you know, like they have. A lot of communities will have, a visual language that they use to identify themselves and express themselves and a way to connect, right? There's something that there is a visual [00:40:00] language to communities for sure. They have this like cultural, like they have this very aesthetic kind of language that crosses your music, visual, all that type of thing, but it really brings them together. So, you know, fashion labels, that's what they do, right? They create these really incredible stories and visuals. Like so powerful, like the visuals that the fashion industry creates, like they are master storytellers. and I think that's what, you know, that's why they're able to get people to buy clothing, right? Like it's like, go beyond this, like functional need, to do something and want to be a part of something. It is really powerful. And so. Doing it for digital fashion is definitely more challenging because you lose that, that tangibility, of being able to wear it and have a picture of yourself. But that's where I think people are adapting.
People are starting to, you know, with PFPs. With AR filters and also now with, you know, being able to wear things in the metaverse or just being able to show that you own something, these are all ways to kind of signify, okay, I'm part of this movement, I'm part of this community. So, so,
Ariba Jahan: can you tell us a little bit [00:41:00] about like the Fabricant platform? Because I know that's a place where you're really engaging with everyone. and there's a lot of power of co creation happening there.
Could you tell us a little
bit about that? Yeah, definitely. So the platform is really so it's It's, built on flow blockchain, the infrastructure is on blockchain. And basically it's a platform where we want to be able to a create their own digital fashion pieces. So not just buy, but also create, to trade.
So there's a marketplace and then have ways to wear it. So whether that's. with AR or through, you know, wearables and things like that. the creation part, what's really interesting that we offer that I think is really unique to us is actual co creation. So you literally can come and choose from a palette of garments, colors, materials, all designed by different people.
So it doesn't always have to be a collection designed by one. Label or one artist, you can have materials by different artists. You can have guns by different artists and you come and you actually put the combinations together to create your unique collection. And I think that's something really only possible in [00:42:00] digital for like, from obviously a scale production point of view, you really can't do that physically, or you can do very low scale.
that's really powerful, but then also it's like really creating this new type of consumer behavior where you're not just like buying what someone has designed. it, you're part of the design process. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I think that's something that actually consumers want. but it's just obviously very hard to facilitate that and deliver on that promise.
But now with digital and when you have like a completely digital kind of chain, production, it's totally possible to do that. And, and that's something I think that the fabricant is offering. We're also obviously doing like we do, we've done several drops now where we're connecting to a physical product.
So we've done like a digital twin of a physical product, which is also something I think people will want more of. So I'm buying this. Sunglasses, like we just did a drop of weekday, they created the physical, we created the digital. So if you bought both of them, you can wear the physical, but then you can also wear the digital in AR.
So there is like this like growing, you know, desire for like, Oh, but I also want the digital one to go [00:43:00] with that. So I can wear it. You know, in photos and things like that and share it. Plus the digital one can have different effects that the physical one might not be able to have. So you get the best of both worlds.
can also trade. There's a marketplace as well. So you can kind of trade your items. So you can kind of become like the goal is eventually. You have people that are maybe not designed as traditional fashion designers, but they can come, they can create a collection.
They can sell it too. You know, so can
I come on Fabrikant and make
Nirmala Shome: something? Yeah, you can. Actually, you can. Even now you can do that. We have a collection, the capers, which are three hats that you can actually customize the colors and the materials with this amazing glitch artist based in the U. S.
called Ellie Pritt and all the materials animated. And they're all her original art. So you're also kind of, it's like this new kind of way that artists can have their work collected and interacted with through fashion. Um, so yeah, it's just like, I think what's really interesting about what we do is it's just like opening up all these different ways people can interact with fashion and what is a fashion product, you know, [00:44:00] what can a fashion product be.
Ariba Jahan: What was the decision or why is it important for fabricants platform to be on chain? Like, why is it on blockchain?
Nirmala Shome: So I think that the most important thing is it's, you know, the authentication of digital assets.
So obviously it's very hard. To verify, Hey, you know, it's a, it's a digital file. Essentially. You've got a visual, you've got an image, you've got JPEG as we like to call it. it's a JPEG, right? Like that's very easy to duplicate. It's very easy to create copies. There's no way to validate that it's authentic to as a, just a normal consumer.
So bringing it on chain adds that level of authentication. And so it can hold its value and it protects it against, All the scams and things like that. And obviously that still happens, but you have this extra layer of protection. And I think that's why so many fashion brands are also just looking at, even if they're remaining physical, to still find ways to authenticate that physical item on chain, so that it is validated.
So it can be like resold, but it can be validated. cause it also protects their product and their IP for themselves and for the [00:45:00] owner. So that that's like a really critical part of it. it right now is the only way to kind of truly validate the authenticity of an item. obviously like building on chain presents a lot of challenges, especially in terms of like how people pay for it.
There's a huge onboarding challenge that, you know, all projects, everyone operating the space has. Is how do we bring people beyond that first wave of crypto native people that are willing to go deep and learn how to set up wallets and understand different currencies and how to do that stuff. Most people don't want to do that.
Most people have zero desire to do that. So that's the
Ariba Jahan: narrative that's been created around it, right? Like the narrative plus like the, the jargon, you know, it's, it just automatically feels like it's, it's inaccessible and it's not for everyone.
Nirmala Shome: I'd say it's the narrative was literally also the user experience.
Like it's literally inaccessible for a lot of people. Yeah. You know, we already, you know, we do drops and we already see like the restrictions in different, especially now, you know, there's even more restrictions depending on your country, like paying with [00:46:00] a credit card, you know, you really take it for granted how easy that is that you can with, you know, with Shopify or whatever, anyone in the world could buy your product.
that is not possible. In the current space we're in with even using the best on ramp tech that we have, there's still a lot of limitations. So that, so that's like a huge issue, the validation of a digital asset is, is hugely important. So obviously the tech will get better and once it gets better, more people will come on.
yeah, that's that, that I would say is one of the setbacks. Of using technology and also just like the way that the web tech runs, like the way that credit card transactions can literally get processed like that. That is not how the blockchain runs, you know, like it's slow. It has issues. It has downtime.
There's literally times when you do a drop and because the chain is down or because of whatever gas prices, people won't buy a product, you know, like, and that would be, that's crazy if you like a retailer. That's like a huge no, no, Oh, you're saying that there's ties and people literally who want to pay are not going to be able to pay.
I mean, that is a [00:47:00] huge red flag. So I think there's
Ariba Jahan: one, if you have multiple people trying to make that same purchase. It might actually drive the gas fee up, which becomes counterproductive. Cause that's not the behavior that you would want to prevent in real life.
Nirmala Shome: No, exactly. Right. Like you're just like the behavior in real life is like, if you want to buy something, it's available for you right then and
Ariba Jahan: there.
It's and you want like a big launch. You want all the foot traffic
Nirmala Shome: and you want all the people to come in. Exactly. Right. Right. That's not the same. No, exactly. And all the crazy strategies that projects have to get around. This is it's really complicated. And the way that you have to design a drop to kind of avoid this, like, we're not on.
ETH. So we actually luckily don't have gas fees on flow, which is really incredible. but you know, we have done, like we were running a promo, we were asking people to mint a piece of art on ETH. And I remember at the time it was like the gas fees were really high. And literally we were like, okay, hold off doing it.
Because it's, you know, like, it's like, you're almost asking people to spend money just to [00:48:00] participate. And that's just like not acceptable for a large scale audience. So yeah, there's definitely setbacks to it, but you know, we're investing now because we really believe in the future of it. and that, that, that all the stuff around it is going to get better.
Ariba Jahan: So there's a bunch of other questions I really want to get into. you know, we talked about when I asked you about like the vision, you had for how the metaverse might manifest and, and, and how we'll interact with it. What are some of your fears around this I guess the intersection of all these emerging technologies and our, and our relationship
Nirmala Shome: with it.
I think like with, digital fashion, to be honest, like, I think. It's not so much of, yeah, I don't know if it's like I have that many fears about it because I really see how it kind of outweighs the negatives, but I think there is also the danger that, you know, just as we've created like extreme amounts of physical waste in the fashion industry will contribute to extreme amounts of digital waste because, you know, all this stuff still consumes a lot of energy.
Like, it's not like we're just Suddenly carbon
Ariba Jahan: digital space isn't like[00:49:00] like it does. It does still have a carbon footprint.
Nirmala Shome: It does. Everything's hosted on servers. Everything is like, you know, on chain, like everything. It's still running. You know, all this stuff is active and running. So we still have a carbon footprint and I think like it's easy to maybe, I guess to kind of create this new world of digital waste.
I think To be mindful of, although I do still think it's very, we're really far away from that. you know, but I, I think like the narrative so far as well about people pushing for blockchains to become, you know, more energy efficient is already pushing us in the right direction. So I don't, it's not like a huge, huge fear I have.
yeah, with digital fashion, to be honest, like not a huge, like I actually kind of see, maybe I'm so brainwashed that I don't see it. But really, I think it's just amazing because it's going to mean so many more people can come into the fashion space and create fashion and do shows and kind of that becomes access.
Yes, the access is incredible. Like what it allows and also like what you can do. I'm like excited to see what fashion will become even. When more [00:50:00] people can create it, like, yeah, I think like AI is one that I don't want to get into because that's like a bit of a rabbit hole, but I think that is one whole another episode.
Yeah, exactly. Where there's more fears, obviously,
Ariba Jahan: are there certain like ethical considerations that you think people who are in the space of digital fashion or metaverse building have to keep in mind?
Nirmala Shome: I mean, I think it's just like right now where it's at, it's still very, you need to be quite technically savvy, right?
The people that are engaging with this are really people that understand 3D and gaming and tech, right? Blender, right? And a lot of that's also still a very small audience. So, you know, a person that's really into fashion, might feel intimidated and off put by that. And so might not engage with it. And so maybe there is that barrier, but there are more and more software and tools to make that.
So I think as that gets better, that would be good. in terms of the web three though, like, or just in terms of blockchain technology in general, I think, yeah, again, I think, I think the [00:51:00] thing that is the most. Kind of that will be quite challenging yeah, like the, the decentralization, you know, how will that play out?
What will that mean? and, and not so much a fear. It's also kind of something that's interesting. Like what will a fashion label look like and operate like? if it's decentralized. If it's, but also if it's like really through co creation. Like what does that mean for the IP of a... Right. You know, what does it mean?
How do you
Ariba Jahan: give
Nirmala Shome: compensation? Yeah. How do you do all of that? And what does it even mean to operate as a label? Will it dilute the power that labels? Cause I think that's one thing too, right? Like labels, very centralized, but they also through that are able to create these really beautiful, coordinated, powerful.
Visuals, if you kind of lose that, do you kind of also dilute this really, you know, the vision that may be a small, I don't know. So I think there's a balance.
Ariba Jahan: Yeah. Do you think we'll see a rise of like, a brand core and then like the co created line of that brand, you know.
Nirmala Shome: Yeah, definitely. I think that's one way it will [00:52:00] happen first.
So the brand will still maintain like a certain level of creativity and IP. And then there's kind of like customizations that people can kind of take on and extend. Like that's what we see now with a lot of web three projects where it's like people are able to kind of leverage the IP of the original collection, but then they can create like derivatives.
So that's like the one, I think that's like definitely a valid use case. I think what. Become more interesting. And people are definitely experimenting. This is like when it becomes like a more, you know, unstructured creative process, which can be facilitated now through all these different ways they connect and, and operate like, yeah.
What will that look like? How will it change the industry? How will it change what, designer, what does that even mean to a designer? So I think there is, yeah, I wouldn't say it's a fear. It's more just like a, unknown, like you wonder, yeah, exactly. Like what, what is
Ariba Jahan: that unknown, unknown. I feel like one thing I, that just sparked for me as you were talking is,, once you provide enough tools and creative, mechanisms to customize, will people be able to [00:53:00] put hate messages on a brand's item? And I mean, someone can put a hate message on their shirt right now and walk around the street, right? My mind starts wondering, maybe it's already happening in niche spaces and I'm just not aware of it where someone could be like, Oh, this is an amazing tool.
I am now going to every day where. You know, racist slurs on my outfit virtually, and people can't really find me. You know, I don't know. That's something that sparked for me when I think about like the potential misuses here. Right.
Nirmala Shome: Yeah. No, I think, look, that's definitely a valid use case, but I, I'd say like, that's. People do that now already. Like you can already go to the world. Yeah. I mean like, look, Kanye put white lives matter at a premier fashion event, you know, and that was, that's already a thing.
And I also think, hate speech, what defines hate speech changes, you don't really like, it really depends on what is the dominant culture and it's really hard to predict and police it. And I think like attempts to do so, like while justified, definitely, right. Like there's definitely, you need to have.
Places like things like that in place, I don't think you can [00:54:00] necessarily stop it totally. and I also don't think it's necessarily a bad thing because I think it's like when those opinions get voiced and you realize they exist, then people can kind of come and find ways to deal with that opinion. It, the more that it is hidden and kind of bubbling and kind of turning into something really horrible.
I think that's when it gets really dangerous when it's like. Maybe there is a way for it to be out in the open it can kind of be addressed right like it can be like Okay, there is a whole group of people that believe this which you might think is crazy. Why do they believe that? How do we you know, like it becomes something I address.
Ariba Jahan: I hadn't thought about it that way which is Definitely interesting. It's like in some ways when racism is hidden or like when sexism is hidden, you almost feel like, Oh, I guess sexism just doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, there is no patriarchy. But then when it's out and you see the signs of it in out in the open, you're right, then we can talk about it and talk about like, so how do we like address this?
How do we as a society? What are we normalizing here? And what do [00:55:00] we not want to normalize? That's, I have to say, I hadn't thought about it that way.
Nirmala Shome: Okay. All right. Yeah. Well, I think, I think it's like, you know, you have to do like, it's, it's all stuff you have to deal with collectively. I think it's really hard to like, you know, and like as much as, you know, you can look at, obviously there's examples that are terrible, but I like to always think people came to those conclusions somehow.
You know, generally people aren't born hateful evil, right? Like they've somehow gotten to this point through whatever events in their life that influences, and I think it's like, it's always a conversation, you know, it's, it's always the best way to do it because otherwise it is, you know, it becomes dangerous.
It becomes like, you know, what's out there. So. Yeah. And I do hope actually with digital fashion that it does allow more people to express themselves. Like fundamentally, that's what we want, that people are out there expressing their most authentic self. and yeah, that could cause a lot of controversy.
Like we already see that, right? Like we released, we released this, you know, our latest collection, we dropped this visual of this woman. and she's kind of like 3d [00:56:00] character, obviously, but she's like, you know, obviously a lot, a large woman. So not the normal. slim body type. She's a large woman and she's like twerking with this, like, you know, beaded outfit on, and it was posted on the next museum Instagram, which is where it was being shown.
you know, it was really interesting to the, to the feed, to see the comments. Equally as positive as just negative, like people were just like, why would you create this? It's so horrible. It's ugly. It's disgusting. And that was just like a, someone who was like a larger, a large woman dancing. Right. And, but people saw that as really disgusting. And I think like putting those, putting images like that out there in the world, a, it challenges. but actually we were glad that, you know, it's, it's for us, it's like putting images like out there that are challenging is actually good. It's good to kind of get a response.
It's good to actually show people something that maybe, you know, maybe for some, it will make them hate us. But for some it might make them see the world in a different way and expand, you know, their sense of, Hey, okay, well this is a form of beauty. This is a form of a [00:57:00] different form. that kind of pushes that a little bit.
So I think that's something that we've, you know, it's hard to kind of. Get that expression out there. But with digital technology, you can do so much more as it becomes more accessible. We hope to see more images that are going to challenge us, images and visuals and stories that are really going to challenge us, but hopefully it's going to make us more empathetic and more see, you know, be more open minded to like, okay, these are all the different ways people can exist and express themselves.
Like we already see that with. You know, the train, like it's pride month, you know, it's already, that's such a huge, like where we are today, can you imagine 20 years ago, how, how different the narrative was, and that's come through a lot of hard work and vulnerability and people like put advocacy.
Ariba Jahan: I mean, it's interesting. Like I hadn't thought about it that way at all. And I think. To your point, I loved your example of seeing both positive and negative responses to that video and seeing that they were pretty equal. And what that shows is like, to your point, by leveraging digital technology, we're able to put that opinion out there.
You're able [00:58:00] to put, make a stance that you believe that this is an image of that's beautiful, that deserves to take up space And it's an expression of creativity and beauty. by the brand taking that stance, it's saying like, no, no, no. We we're good with this. No, this is what we think should be here.
and I think what we're seeing more and more of is like, it's not like certain images or certain representation is only normalized on a certain month. We're seeing more and more brands and more and more just people, right? Put themselves out there period in their most authentic self.
And I do think it's beautiful. It does make it a little bit more open to like getting hate messages or like opposing views in general. And I, and I get what you're saying, like by someone saying, Oh, this is ugly. They're getting like, no, this is beautiful. They're getting challenged.
Nirmala Shome: Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.
You're challenging their kind of view on the world, which of course, people don't like to be challenged, right? It's not an easy thing to be done. Yeah. But, you know, I think we've all been, you know, we get challenged all the time and often like we see things that we're like, Oh my God, that's crazy. But then, you know, you [00:59:00] might on the flip side be like, Oh, I just, yeah, I didn't think about it that way.
Ariba Jahan: Or like here. I mean, I just, literally just said that, right? Like, even I was like, Oh, I hadn't thought about it that way. how does your parents describe what you do or how would they describe what you do?
Nirmala Shome: you know what? I don't even know. I think maybe they think I work in digital something.
Like, honestly, I don't even go there. I think they think I work in marketing. Marketing is the easiest one to explain. but not even my parents, like I, you know, a lot of my friends don't understand what I do. You know, when I think when I first started working a, when I worked in digital fashion, there was first, what is that?
Like, okay, we get it. You make 3d clothing. Okay. Maybe get that then when moving into like, Oh, we were working with three and people can co create and do stuff. That was, that's like a complete and to a lot of people that still is a complete like black box of like, I just don't understand that. you know, sometimes I'm good at explaining and other days I'm not depending on, you know, how I'm feeling, but I think, you know, the meta and the, you know, the narrative with the metaverse maybe helped a little bit, but also didn't help.
I think a lot of [01:00:00] people just have a hard time seeing how the digital world is as, present to me and many people. As the physical,
Ariba Jahan: but I think it's no longer like a digital isn't the plan
Nirmala Shome: B. No, exactly. I don't think I really didn't see like a separate thing. It's like, we're constantly moving between digital and physical.
yeah, I actually think that boundary will just continue to blur, like the world we inhabit is both digital and physical all the time, you know, you constantly have your phone with you, you're constantly. Connecting into digital spaces, like actually you're more connected digitally.
you're just as connected digitally as you are physically. but a lot of people, I think, really picture this like 3D virtual environment, when actually it's just. the internet and it's just how we connect. So I think, when you get into like digital fashion and gaming, it all kind of seems like the future and unreal and things like that.
But yeah, exactly. But it is actually, it's present. It's very present. So, yeah.
Ariba Jahan: so I'm gonna ask you one last question before we do like a rapid round of questions. I know you're, you're, you [01:01:00] recently transitioned from being the head of community to being the head of marketing and growth.
how are you approaching that?
and what's the difference to you? Yeah.
Nirmala Shome: So I think the community being head of community is very much focused on how do we grow and, keep this community engaged, keep giving them programs and activities and products and whatever it is to kind of keep them growing, keep them engaged so they can kind of become the people that are bringing other people in.
So it's really a focus on retention, but also events. engagement, things like that. I think transitioning now to more of a marketing and growth role, which is still, you know, community is definitely still a key part of it. it's really now about, yeah, like the storytelling. and how do we like connect, resonate with new people?
How do we like kind of connect with them? What is the, you know, what is our story? How do we present ourselves? So it is going to be, it's going to be interesting. It's going to take me back to my days back in the ad world for sure. So
Ariba Jahan: when you say storytelling, you're talking about the storytelling of the brand, the fabricant too, right?
And then like the community storytelling versus like [01:02:00] the brand. It's, like, I'm curious, like, how are you parsing those? parsing and it's,
Nirmala Shome: that's what It's like, it's, it's not even like, it's kind of like the storytelling that you need for someone who doesn't know who you are. And then what's the storytelling for someone that knows who you are, you know, like.
How do you interact with them? So I think it's a different type of storytelling that will be happen, for this more of a marketing acquisition time role. but also I'm really excited about like doing it. So obviously I kind of started when it was like banner, people were buying banner ads and emails.
And, you know, doing paid stuff. And now we're in a world where it's like portrait only people are only in YouTube show, you know, like where people spend their time online is so different now. Yeah. And with open AI as well. And, and chat GPT, it's like people are in, these tools rather than just surfing the internet.
You know, people are spending more time in tools where they just get what they need and they get out. They're spending less time on these like public or whatever ad kind of backed networks. So it's like, how do we connect with people? so that will definitely be a [01:03:00] challenge. but I'm excited to see what that world is like.
So I haven't, you know, like, yeah, it's, it's so much
Ariba Jahan: more interactive.
Nirmala Shome: Yeah, exactly. And so much more about, I think there is a really strong community angle to it too.
Ariba Jahan: Because you do want to connect. You have to feel connected to the story to want to interact with it. Yes. Old age digital marketing was just one directional and it was just like consume this message or consume this thing I don't really need you to interact with it per se versus now It's that compelled to action that makes it a little bit more complicated
Nirmala Shome: Yeah, exactly.
And that's where I'm actually kind of excited about my direct marketing conversion reports and all this stuff. It's like, yeah, getting back into the numbers. Actually, I'm actually, I'm kind of excited about that. I am a little bit of this to the numbers and KPIs and things, but something about this time, it's like, you know what, I'm actually interested to see, like, how do people respond?
How do you kind of look at these different metrics and things like that? So
Ariba Jahan: yeah. Excited for you.[01:04:00] okay. So I'm gonna, Kick off our rapid fire. okay.
Are you an introvert or extrovert?
Extrovert.
What helps you stay
Nirmala Shome: curious? the internet.
Ariba Jahan: What's one thing that you're deeply grateful for right now?
Nirmala Shome: Definitely my family, stability, like just having that, very important.
Ariba Jahan: If you could go back and give your 18 year old self one piece of advice, what would it be?
Nirmala Shome: Honestly, believe in yourself. Like, I think that's one thing, like just, I realised I would just like want to do things. I was like, it's too hard, I'm not going to do it. I think there were so many things, if I had done it, I would have just nailed it.
So just...
Ariba Jahan: I relate to that hard. what is something you've been doing recently to nurture your mental health? Asking from one new mom to another new mom.
Nirmala Shome: Um, I try to meditate. It sometimes works. I used to be good at that stuff, but honestly, yeah, that's, I don't know. Good question.
I guess meditate. Yeah.
Ariba Jahan: What's something you couldn't do without in your career? It could be anything, a routine, a person, [01:05:00]
Nirmala Shome: a service. Definitely now, like just the remote work culture. I could like, I don't know how people, like, especially being a parent had to show up to an office every day at nine.
That's that was, that's crazy.
Ariba Jahan: Out of all the failures you've had in your life, whether it was a failure of never launching a launch that didn't go so well, or, you know, something that didn't go great. What's your favorite failure?
Nirmala Shome: Yeah, well, I guess. the moments when I actually didn't act on the things I wanted to do, I think I would actually call those true failures because not giving it a go basically was the failure. If I had just given it a go and failed, it probably, you know, like, so I think it was actually just the not.
The inaction. Like what if you believed in yourself. The fear. Yeah, the fears.
Ariba Jahan: how do you nurture or what encourages play in your life right now?
Nirmala Shome: My child. Yeah. Definitely.
Ariba Jahan: if you weren't in this role, what else would you
Nirmala Shome: be doing? I would love to be a [01:06:00] writer. That would be my dream.
And I'm working on that. hopefully I can age into that one day. So yeah, that's, that would just definitely be my dream.
Ariba Jahan: Amazing. what do you think is up next for metaverse for digital fashion?
Nirmala Shome: I think the focus, I mean, I'm excited about like what Apple vision pro has just kind of the excitement it's created.
You know, I think that will help bolster the help bolster us all right now that are kind of facing all the negative stories. I think. Right now that that is kind of something that's kind of keeping people staying positive about immersive technology. But honestly, I think we really need to wait for the narrative to change a little bit.
it's definitely tough right now in the web three and just metaverse space. and also in the world, like economically, like it's, it's tough right now. So I think like, and so I'd say, I think that Apple vision pro has actually helped. Bring up, bring the excitement back to kind of what, immersive tech can be.
So that I'd say is the next kind of exciting thing.
Ariba Jahan: Who do you think is up next? Who is someone that the [01:07:00] listeners I should be watching and learning from?
Nirmala Shome: would say like, there's all these like up and come and create like TikTok, get on TikTok, like all the entertainers on there. I'd say the people that are up next.
Ariba Jahan: in closing, where can people learn more about you, support your work?
Nirmala Shome: I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn. so that's all, that's easy. And then I've also, I have a sub stack that I'm trying to get up and running. Yeah. stands for open knowledge collective. So that's something I'm working on.
So you can also, I'm going to hope to be adding more. Amazing.
Ariba Jahan: Well, we're excited to see your writing come into that sub stack. Nirmala, thank you so much for making the time for this call. I've learned so much and I'm so inspired by your whole story, by everything that you've shared today, your point of view, and I feel like You've opened up some of my aperture a little bit more towards where immersive fashion and immersive expression is going.
Nirmala Shome: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Reva. This was really fun.
Ariba Jahan: This [01:08:00] was really fun. Yes. A part
Nirmala Shome: two. Yeah, part two. Exactly.
Ariba Jahan: Thank you for joining us for this conversation today. If you liked what you heard, be sure to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify to help more people discover the show.
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