Episode Notes:

In this episode, I sit down with Cathy Hackl to discuss her journey and inspiration from being a journalist to becoming a futurist and the godmother of the metaverse. We explored what brands should keep in mind when building for Generation Alpha - a group of tech natives who are rewiring the future. Cathy also explained the concept of spatial computing and its applications in various industries and how it may evolve over the next few years. We acknowledged the challenges, the need for ethical considerations in how this tech evolves and the potential of spatial computing in creating more immersive and engaging experiences through more integrations of physical and digital worlds and geopolitics in the metaverse.

Throughout our chat, Cathy and I shared personal stories as women and moms in the industry, valuable insights that pave the way for a deeper understanding of the tech landscape, and much more.

What questions come up for you? Let us know so we can have a future episode breaking concepts down and answering your questions.

Follow along:

2:10 - Cathy's Journey from Journalism to Tech
3:45 - Importance of Strategic Decision Making and Mindset
4:40 - Challenging Gender Norms and Embracing Success
9:52 - Understanding Generation Alpha and How to Engage with Them
18:19 - Exploring Spatial Computing and its Potential Applications
26:12 - Challenges and Ethical Considerations of Spatial Computing
32:41 - Why You Need to Stay Informed and Adapt to Technological Changes
35:36 - Cathy's Reflections and Personal Experiences in the Tech Industry

Referenced on the Episode:

Harvard Business Review: The Business Case for Understanding Generation Alpha

Code Spark Game

Vogue Business

Allie K. Miller, AI Business Leader and International Speaker

Irina Kronin, CEO of Infinite Retina

Lindsay McInerney Co-Founder of Armored Kingdom

Cathy Hackl’s Book- Into the Metaverse: The Essential Guide to the Business Opportunities of the Web3 Era

Guest Bio: Cathy Hackl

Cathy Hackl is a leading business executive, tech futurist, and media personality. She’s a leading authority in emerging tech and leads Journey’s Virtual Studio helping companies and governments with gaming, AR, AI, spatial computing and virtual world strategies and strategic foresight. Brands like Nike, Walmart, Louis Vuittion, and Clinique have trusted her to guide them into new virtual spaces. She was recently named one of Ad Age’s Leading Women of 2023 and on the Vogue Business 100 Innovators list. She’s a member of the prestigious Ad Council Board of Directors and the host of an award winning Adweek podcast. She’s popularly known in tech circles as the Godmother of the Metaverse and has been a fixture in the world of immersive technology for almost a decade with many media appearances in CNBC’s Squawk Box, 60 Minutes+, CNN, Good Morning America, GQ, Time, The Economist, Bloomberg, and more.

Twitter /X | Linkedin | Site

Ep 08 - Spatial Computing and Building for Gen Alpha with Chief Futurist, Cathy Hackl
Ariba Jahan: How do you think Gen Alpha will be using technology differently than Gen Z or us when it comes to metaverse, AI, and spatial computing?
Cathly Hackl: It's ubiquitous for them, right? I've got three kids. They're all Gen Alpha. By the time they were born, Siri was already around, right? They don't know a world without AI.
Cathly Hackl: They don't know a world without AR. They don't know a world without gaming. So it's just second nature. So more technologically advanced than any other generation, right? And I think the thing is that they have the tools to build. With the game engines and now with generative AI and everything, like they're growing up in a totally different world where the creation process is very different.
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Ariba Jahan: Welcome to another episode of Up Next in Tech, a podcast exploring the intersection of emerging tech, responsible innovation, and the way we live, play, and interact. I'm your host, Ariba Jahan. am a super curious multidisciplinary leader that's worked across many different industries from Biomechanical engineering and medicine and technology to design innovation, transformation, and social impact.
And I've been super intrigued by how emerging technologies and new industries are built and shaped. So this podcast is essentially a reflection of that curiosity. every single episode, I bring on a guest who I'm deeply inspired by, and we dive into how they got started because the careers and roles they have today.
Did not exist a decade ago, and we unpacked the nascent industry they're working in and the emerging tech they're building. We also get into the tension that they're navigating and grappling with when it comes to, exploring endless creative possibilities and business potential to uncertainties and ethical considerations.
And in this episode, I get to sit down with Kathy Hackel. She's globally recognized as a business executive. Godmother of the metaverse, as well as a tech futurist. You may have come across her written work in Wired, Forbes, or her own books on immersive technology and web three. Or you may have seen her, appear on, many different interviews on CNBC, Good Morning America, The Economist, and much, much more. she was recently one of AdAge's leading women of 2023. And she was, on the list for Vogue Business 100 Innovators List, which is pretty incredible. And this was such a fun conversation with Kathy. We dug into her unique career journey and how she got to where she is today, the Chief Futurist at Journey.
What is spatial computing and where is it headed over the next decade, as well as challenges and ethical considerations we need to be mindful of. Cathy and I really bonded over what inspires us how we both have faced different gender expectations, especially as moms and how we've had to be rebellious against those expectations.
So check out the episode and let us know what resonated with you, what questions come to your mind, and be sure to subscribe, share, and leave us a review. your reviews have been super helpful for new listeners to find us. So thank you so much for showing up, tuning in and supporting us. Let's dive in.
Ariba Jahan: Cathy, so excited to have you on this podcast. It's truly an honor to finally sit down and have this conversation. Thank you for joining us.
Cathy Hackl: I'm thrilled to be here. Thanks for asking me. And, we might have some background noise because my son's practicing piano. So if you guys hear some music, that's what's going on.
Cathy Hackl: It's not elevator music.
Ariba Jahan: It's just good to know. Good to know. We're having this conversation, right? at the heel of you recently doing a speech, right? And speaking at Costa Rica, you were recently recognized in Forbes for being one of the most powerful women of Central America. And then you headlined their main event in Costa Rica.
Ariba Jahan: First of all, congratulations. And I was just curious, like, how did that feel for you being recognized in this way and at your home country?
Cathy Hackl: it was an honor. It was a privilege. So I'm Costa Rican American kind of grew up in between a lot of different places. So like, I feel like my heart's between Costa Rica and the U S in where I believe home is for me.
Cathy Hackl: But it was just nice to go back and speak in Spanish to an audience of a lot of womenAt the end they felt very motivated. Yeah, and it was probably a message they don't hear very often. They hear from a lot of, I think a lot of women, but like a woman in tech and everything saying, this is what's going on.
Cathy Hackl: this is how you stand out. This is what you need to do. literally I was like, you guys need to be rebellious. You need to be rebels and in the good sense of the word. But it was an honor. It was an honor and a privilege. And I have to tell you when I found out it was going to be on the cover of that Forbes issue there was a couple of us, about six women on the cover.
Cathy Hackl: I was floored. It was like a lifelong dream. And I was just thrilled that... That was on the cover. So yeah, I just feel humbled, honored, and privileged to have been on the cover and have, headlined their talk. And most of all the women that came up to me afterwards and, yeah, and shared their excitement.
Ariba Jahan: I love this concept of being a rebel. I feel like I need the translated version of this talk. So let me know when that's available. And these don't happen by accident, right? Like you've had such a prolific career and you've left a lasting footprint in many different industries from broadcast media to tech, metaverse, and even with your own luxury jewelry brand tapping into fashion.
Cathy's Journey from Journalism to Tech
Ariba Jahan: So tell us a little bit about this journey. How did you go from being a journalist to being a futurist and the godmother of the metaverse and et cetera?
Cathy Hackl: it hasn't been a straight journey. Like it's been twists and turns, reverses, accelerations. I'm very thankful. And you and I have spoken before I tend to be very strategic.
Cathy Hackl: I look at, what's happening, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? What am I doing? What am I trying to accomplish? So it's all been very, sometimes sporadic, but there's always a reason behind it. like when I was in high school, I thought I was going to be a journalist, I wanted to be an anchor. And I went to school for that. I went, did mass communications. And I also did international studies and then, got to the news and worked at CNN and ABC news and a local Fox station like animal planet, you name it.
Cathy Hackl: I did it in media. and learned a lot. I eventually decided that wasn't really where I wanted to stay. And then found myself being like, okay what am I going to do? What is this? And eventually was able to land in technology. In a great way and I put all my effort and my energy into upskilling myself, connecting with people in the industry.
Cathy Hackl: I was a new voice at that time, a new person, no one really knew me. And I just dedicated a lot of time to making sure I educated myself, upskilled myself, connected with tons of people, especially a lot of Latina women. And then, yeah, when I made the decision that's, the tech is what I wanted to do the rest of my life I was all in and had all the energy behind it to accomplish it.
Cathy Hackl: And and it's been a wild ride. I feel like I've been on a rocket. You're on that rocket too. So I love that. But it's like this rocket that is going so incredibly fast. And you just got to hold on for dear life.
Ariba Jahan: last conversation we had I quickly saw how strategic you are and I feel like one big takeaway for me in that call was like nothing happens by accident, either it was meant to be in terms of like the universe is like just putting you in the path you're meant to be on plus your strategic decision making and like really envisioning a future for yourself that you want.
Ariba Jahan: I'm just curious. Is there like a mindset or a reframe that you can offer to listeners who are like, I don't know what I want to do, or like, another thing I've noticed is what might be a pivot to someone else is more manifestation and strategic decision making for you. And that's something I also picked up from that call with you.
Ariba Jahan: So just curious if you have any tool tips to offer
Cathy Hackl: Yeah, I think the mindset question first, I'll answer that because I think it's really interesting. And I did say this at the Forbes event. I said, one of the big things that I was taught from a very young age, unlike many other girls, I was actually taught there were no limits, my mom and my dad, hats off to them.
Challenging Gender Norms and Embracing Success
Cathy Hackl: They never said, you can't do this because you're a girl. Like literally like my brother and I were equally the same, go get it, go take over the world kind of situation. And we just went and did. And every time I asked my parents. Hey guys, I want to explore this or I want to explore this.
Cathy Hackl: Like they were very open and said, sure. I'm five feet tall. I'll tell you I'm teeny tiny.
Ariba Jahan: You're half an inch taller than me,
Cathy Hackl: but I can't do that. And I said mom, dad, I want to go to a modeling class. any other parent would probably like yeah, no, you're never going to be about another sure.
Cathy Hackl: Go. And I learned a lot about, how to pose or how to walk or how to do certain things. And I was literally in the class with all these very tall very tall and thin, teenagers. I didn't fit that but I learned so much because I challenged myself and I'd never said, no, I'm not gonna do that.
Cathy Hackl: So just like that or French it doesn't have to be that, but that's a really good example of somewhere. where I don't fit the box. But they never said no. They said, sure, go try it. See what you learn. One thing was also they taught me not to quit. If they signed me up for something and within a couple practices, I was like, Oh, this is not my jam.
Cathy Hackl: They're like, you signed up, you got to finish the season. You got to be there for your team. Like commitment. Yeah. So that was one of the things, but I think the mindset of go do it and not like the millennial mindset of everyone gets a medal and like all that stuff. It was more like, sure, go explore, go see what you can do.
Cathy Hackl: Go see what happens. Yeah. I remember traveling at a very young age as a teenager doing all these kind of exchange programs and I don't know if I would let my kids do that, to be honest, but I was 16 going in exchange programs,
Ariba Jahan: like maybe they'll do an immersive version of that.
Ariba Jahan: There you
Cathy Hackl: go. That's fine. But yeah, I think that the mindset was just you're no different than your brother. You're not less deserving. You're equally deserving. you're worth it. You're enough. I think a lot of women, we don't feel like, sometimes say to ourselves, we're not enough or we make excuses.
Cathy Hackl: So another part of the mindset is also because I was brought up that way. Like I never felt like I needed to censor myself or be like, Oh, I can't share I can't share this win. No, our dinner table was like what's going on today? What made you happy today? So all the wins came out and, and that's something that I definitely, once I started in the business world, especially in tech, I noticed that all the men were like, Oh, I did this, or I won this award.
Cathy Hackl: I was featured here. No one would say anything and the women would like not share. And I was like, why are all these amazing women not sharing all the amazing things they're doing? All the amazing accolades, And you'll see that for me, like I will share and share. And I'll tell you every time I'm doing something awesome.
Cathy Hackl: And yeah, I share value to, I share a lot of good, valuable content for free and free resources, but I also share when I'm having my wins and some people will say that's over promotional. I said, don't be scared, don't be scared. You worked for this hard, you deserve those wins.
Ariba Jahan: That last bit that you share just reminded me of something a really good friend of mine recently said her name is Vivian Castillo. She said, you're not going to be for everyone. But for those that you are for, you're going to be in a really big way, right? So it's I think one of the things that happens with women and maybe, maybe I'm just speaking for myself.
Ariba Jahan: It's not only just keep your head down and do the work, right? That's definitely been like in my immigrant culture. The teaching is like, keep your head down. Don't cause a lot of attention to come to you. Just do your hard work and your work will speak for itself. And I realized that is not how the world works.
Ariba Jahan: And then the other part of that is also. Trying to appease everyone. That's also something that I think women are taught don't do anything that's going to disrupt something or ruffle feathers or for you, it's like you're being too self promotional. I'm not so sure how many men have to hear that.
Ariba Jahan: So I really love that advice. Thank you.
Cathy Hackl: They never get that. No one ever says, Oh, John, you're being too self promotional.
Cathy Hackl: Ever. And a woman and a mother, I travel quite extensively, et cetera, et cetera like my soon to be ex husband actually takes care of the kids a lot of time when I travel. But whenever I travel and I go to event, they're like, how do you do it? And I'm literally standing maybe next to a fellow male colleague.
Cathy Hackl: My, he might have nine kids. I have three. They never asked him, how do you
Ariba Jahan: do it? So I think they just assume, Oh, there's somebody else,
Cathy Hackl: that's her role. And I'm like no, this is a different world it's a very different approach. So yeah, like you said, like
Cathy Hackl: we need to be rebels.
Cathy Hackl: We need to disrupt the realities. We're disrupting the status quo, but just be yourself and be out there and don't limit yourself. Don't limit yourself in Spanish, there's this saying, I'm going to say it in Spanish and then tell you what it means.
Cathy Hackl: Calladita mas bonita, which means if you're quiet, you're prettier. And girls are taught that from a young age, calladitas mas bonita. I'm not saying go be super loud or crazy, but don't censor yourself. Talk about your wins, talk about who you are.
Cathy Hackl: This is another thing. And I said this in the Forbes article. So one thing, that I tend to do and I've learned sometimes when I was especially in tech, very deep in, in deep tech, I might be the only woman at the table. Mm-hmm. Surrounded by men. Mm-hmm. . And they would all be talking.. And sometimes I knew more than they did on a certain thing.
Cathy Hackl: I literally would interrupt them. They interrupted themselves. But a woman interrupting them? So now, I don't care. I'm not scared. They interrupt themselves, why am I not able to do the same? So I interrupt them too. They hate it. They really do. They don't like it.
Cathy Hackl: I've got something important to say.
Ariba Jahan: Absolutely. And I think what you're saying right now, you taking up space, you saying that we need to be rebels, hopefully a generation from now, that is not what a rebel looks like, right?
Exploring Spatial Computing and its Potenial Applications
Ariba Jahan: It's going to be normalized that we take up space that we have a voice and that we do what we do, and so speaking of Future Generations, you recently published an amazing piece filled with insightful research in partnership with the Harvard Business Review on Generation Alpha.
Ariba Jahan: What were some of the most interesting or surprising findings from your research on Gen Alphas, like attitudes and behaviors? Were there any big ahas for
Cathy Hackl: you? Not for me, obviously, because I'm in this space, right? But I think for a lot of people, and it's a free resource, by the way, anyone that's listening.
Cathy Hackl: They can go to the Harvard Business Review and look for Generation Alpha. It's under their analytic service. It's a free resource, free to everyone. One of the things that we noticed was that there's not a lot of studies or a lot of research about Gen Alpha that people could actually, use in that way.
Cathy Hackl: So we were able to tap some of our clients like Walmart and Legoland. To talk about, gen Alpha, like how are companies and brands thinking about Gen Alpha? What is the business case for understanding Gen Alpha and who are they? We had Zoey Gaman as well, who's another amazing woman. I highly admire and recommend everyone follow her as well.
Cathy Hackl: But yeah, I think for other people, maybe the aha moments we're like, wow, this generation is, first of all, these are the kids of millennials. They are kids that, were very young starting, the pandemic. And came out the other side at 13.
Cathy Hackl: So Generation Alpha is anyone born between 2010 and still being born, right? So it's a generation that comes after Gen Z. So the kids and millennials they're going to be one of the biggest cohorts. They're going to have amazing spending power and they're very different.
Cathy Hackl: One of the big differences that we've noticed, at least in a vast majority of them, is that like their social networks are tend to be games. It's gaming. Gaming is where they're socializing from an early age. So they're watching their cousins or their older Gen Z siblings on social, and they don't necessarily like everything they're seeing, but they like gaming, gaming is where they're spending a lot of time. And you and I talked about this. you're kind of like moving away from content creators, just content creators that just create all this content for consuming to these world builders, and creators in a different way.
Cathy Hackl: They're creating worlds that are playable by themselves and their friends and different people. So it's a different type of situation here. So the way young people engage, is very different. An example here that I always talk about is that back in the day, like early 2000s, like all the brands were like, we'll never need to be on Twitter or X or whatever it's called now or Instagram.
Cathy Hackl: We'll never need that. Like now a company and a brand that doesn't have like social media presence. You're like. Something's up. Like this is very efficient, right? If they're not on social. What are you hiding? What are you hiding? why aren't you on social? Even the CIA, right?
Cathy Hackl: Like everyone's social. So that mentality of we'll never need this is what I'm hearing from a lot of brands. no, we don't need to be in gaming. We don't need to be in, that stuff. And yeah, as I look to the future, I say, especially as this generation coming of age, like eventually it's just going to become something that all the companies need to have, right.
Cathy Hackl: Cause that's where those audiences are going to be. So yeah, I think surprising for some like thinking about that or the amount of money that goes through gaming and how many hours these kids are spending gaming and. For some of them, it's also the idea and the concept that what happens in the virtual space is equally real to them as what happens in the physical world.
Cathy Hackl: Yeah, just a lot of different things. I think there's a haul moments for different people in that research. Highly advise people go find it. It's a free
Ariba Jahan: resource. I'm definitely linking it in the notes that people can find it. Based on what you're saying, like their traits, how do you think Gen Alpha will be using technology differently than Gen Z or us, when it comes to metaverse, AI and spatial computing?
Cathy Hackl: It's ubiquitous for them, right? I've got three kids, they're all Gen Alpha. By the time they were born, already around, right? They don't know a world without AI. They don't know a world without AR. They don't know a world without gaming. So it's just second nature. So more technologically advanced than any other generation, right?
Cathy Hackl: And I think the thing is that they have the tools to build. With the game engines and now with generative AI and everything, like they're growing up in a totally different world where the creation process is very different.
Cathy Hackl: So yeah, so I think that'll change I think they are going to expect the companies that recruit them, retain them and that train them to be very innovative. So we're going to see very interesting things. I think once they're old enough to get into the workforce, they're not there yet.
Cathy Hackl: But they're starting high school. They'll eventually get to college and then, be part of the workforce. They're going to be, I think, 10 percent by 2030. So we'll see a big change, I think, from a technological standpoint.
Ariba Jahan: And by then the technology is going to change so much, right?
Ariba Jahan: And given that we know that we're like preparing ourselves for Gen Alpha to become users, to become part of the workforce, like what are some ethical considerations that people should keep in mind as they are building and evolving this technology?
Cathy Hackl: because they are growing up in a world, they've always known AI like AI has been around forever, but mostly, with for them, it's ubiquitous.
Cathy Hackl: It's everywhere. I think what's quote unquote, real and what isn't real or what's human made? What is machine made? I think that's gonna be really interesting. The level of trust that they're gonna have on certain things, I Even the relationship with AI, I think is very different, right?
Cathy Hackl: talk to any, most parents and they'll be like, for me, like my virtual assistants are gadgets. I'll get mad if they don't give me the right answer. And I'll be like, Oh my gosh, turned out a stop or whatever. But my kids will be like, mom, don't speak to Alexa or whoever, like that way to them.
Cathy Hackl: It's they're. I wouldn't say friends, but they see this as more than a technological gadget. And I'll see this in a lot of different things. My youngest plays this game called Code Spark, which is for learning how to code at a young age, and she creates all these maps. And sometimes she, if she doesn't play with her brother and sister, they might not be on it, or I'm not playing the map with her, she'll play against the AI.
Cathy Hackl: It literally says AI just like, Oh, interesting. So yeah, I mean, this, these feelings that we have right now and rightfully so to have them of worry, being worried about AI and what it can do to humanity, I think for them, it's a little bit different in the sense that they're more comfortable with the technology.
Ariba Jahan: love the fact that the game that she was playing, they were already labeling it AI. So they're not trying to hide behind some sort of a human persona, but letting her know this is AI. And that's what you're interacting with. on that note, It feels like technologists plus marketers and brands are probably gearing their mind around, like, how do we engage with Gen Alpha?
Ariba Jahan: And you mentioned this is the generation that are actually world builders and not the content creators. So with that being in mind, like, how should they think about building to engage Generation Alpha?
Cathy Hackl: I think it depends on many different sectors. I was interviewing a sports team that we're doing some really interesting work with, and I really can't share much about that, but I'll tell you something that they said to me.
Cathy Hackl: They said, the data shows I think it's between eight and 12, like six and 10 or eight and 12 years old kids decide which team they're going to support. Sports team. That's when they start to make up their minds, right? Whether they're going to support the team, their parents support, or whether they're going to support a different team to go in a different direction.
Cathy Hackl: That's way
Ariba Jahan: younger than I would have
Cathy Hackl: predicted. Yeah. But it's from an early age, especially if you live in like the rest of the world where, football, we have it in the U S with teams, but I think it's a little bit different.
Cathy Hackl: But yeah, like kids make up their mind relatively young. So why wouldn't soccer teams need to be in there? This is a non negotiable, like if they want to create those alliances they need to create that brand awareness and alliance and brand, and that kind of brand recognition from an early age.
Cathy Hackl: So yeah, like things like that just resonate and I say, yes, like this makes sense. This is why you need to be engaging with this audiences. Because at the end of the day, this is a future fan that, the future fans of your brand, the future fans of your club, the future friends or whatever.
Cathy Hackl: So when someone says like, why would Gucci be in Roblox, I'm like, yeah, they might buy the 5 Gucci shirt, like skin for their avatar, but at the end of the day, eventually, they're going to have incredible spending power, and they're going to be the ones wanting, to get that Gucci shirt that now they can afford, right?
Ariba Jahan: And you've been present for them, with them in the environments that they're engaging
Cathy Hackl: in. Yeah. And then even co creation, like the brands like Nike and some of these where you're actually, Adidas and Nike and those that are creating co creation opportunities for these communities.
Cathy Hackl: Granted, it's not a lot of Gen Alpha folks in a lot of these communities. It's more Web3 folks. Which are very, I wouldn't say very fewer Gen Alpha or almost none. But yeah, I think that there's , these co creation opportunities that are coming up. So it's going to be interesting.
Ariba Jahan: Yeah. I'm really excited to see how different technologies start opening up more and more opportunities for that co creation. Like what tools become open source feel like we're seeing more and more of the co creation being part of the feature building just more of that versus only relying on like community user generated content.
Ariba Jahan: So you also wrote a mini book on spatial computing when Apple announced their the Apple Vision Pro.
Ariba Jahan: Could you break down what is spatial computing? And When you look up the definition, sometimes it is lumped in with VR and AR. So as you define it, could you like help us distinguish how is it different or similar to VR and
Cathy Hackl: AR?
Cathy Hackl: so this is interesting. I worked for several years at Magic Leap, which pretty much the spatial computing glasses, right? It was ahead of its time. It's still around. It's just very small, a lot smaller than what it used to be. So when I worked there, we thought it was the next Apple. It was a great time to work there.
Cathy Hackl: I'll tell you that. But the way we defined it when I was there I'm working on refining this definition for myself as well. But we said
Cathy Hackl: spatial computing is a new form of computing that uses computer vision and artificial intelligence to seamlessly blend virtual content into your reality.
Cathy Hackl: what people usually think, they think spatial computing, think virtual reality. It's same thing. Like. When they would think metaverse, it's VR. No. This is about many different technologies. This is about putting virtual content in someone's reality. It encompasses many different things.
Cathy Hackl: spatial computing is that new form of computing. I think I think Tim Cook did a really good job when he was on stage at WWDC back in June, announcing the first spatial computer that they're bringing to market, the Apple Vision Pro. And he talked about, how they revolutionized personal computing with the Mac mobile computing with the iPhone.
Cathy Hackl: And now they're going to revolutionize. This new form of computing called spatial computing, where you're going to need some type of device, some type of wearable Apple vision pro in this case. So, I think that they understand the shift that's happening, computing where eventually in one single device, you have both the compute power and the communication power in one single device.
Cathy Hackl: You won't be looking down at the phone and the screens, the rectangles, I call the rectangles on our walls and our hands, you're going to be looking up, it's going to headsets up display. Where you're going to be looking at other people and information is just going to be the data layer that we can't really see very well is going to be visible to us.
Cathy Hackl: So, it's a big change. good thing here, I have to be honest, is that spatial computing is in an bit. Evolutionary phase, right? So there's not a hype around it. I think we get it's not the hype that we saw that we're seeing with AI. It's not the hype that we saw with metaverse.
Cathy Hackl: This is more evolutionary. It's going to take, 5 to 10 years for special computing to truly get to where it needs to be. So yeah, that's a good thing though. I'm glad we're not overhyping spatial computing and yeah, it's going to be an evolutionary process. While as I think the differentiation is like AI for a very long time was an evolutionary mode.
Cathy Hackl: And then, it went revolutionary, like literally revolutionary. Now everyone can have access to it. It's going to change this. It's going to change that. eventually spatial computing, we'll get to that revolutionary phase.
Ariba Jahan: Yeah, because AI is not new, but to many people who suddenly has that access to it On their phone, they might not know that I has been around for over a decade with spatial computing. If someone's listening and they're like, wait, layering information onto your reality is not like augmented reality. How is it a little different from air?
Cathy Hackl: Yeah. I think with AR, it's different. AR, you do it mostly through your phone. So spatial computing use a lot of meshing, a lot of LIDAR, a lot of AR uses some LIDAR, but it's a lot more complex.
Cathy Hackl: It's really, truly a new computing platform. it has to do with a lot more use of different technologies. It's pretty much a computer that sees what a computer that understands the world.
Ariba Jahan: And then leverages that information in real
Cathy Hackl: time. That information constantly changes in real time.
Cathy Hackl: Which is not AR. AR is pretty much just juxtaposing virtual content in front of you.
Ariba Jahan: What are some of the most promising use cases and applications for spatial computing in the near future or distant future?
Cathy Hackl: There's going to be, I think, a lot of changes in education shopping.
Cathy Hackl: I like to shop, so I like that. But one thing when I was looking at that medical field too, by the way, medical field, there's a lot of work magically that's done in that field as well. So that's one. But I would say the biggest thing that really spoke to me when Apple introduced the Apple vision pro was when they were showcasing the devices 3d memories and photos capabilities where, you know, you almost record the memories and yeah, it was really cool.
Cathy Hackl: You could relive those memories in a way that we can't right now. when I saw that part, I was like. That is why someone like my parents would buy this device to see their grandbabies, to have those memories, right? I am the target customer for an Apple Vision Pro that's me, you and me are early adopters.
Cathy Hackl: We're gonna test this tech, we're gonna go in line we love this stuff. But for my parents no they're never, they're not that. But when I said that, I said, this is why eventually someone like them would get a device like this. It's because they're able to do things that they couldn't otherwise relieve these memories.
Cathy Hackl: So I think it's going to change. It's going to change a lot of different things.
Cathy Hackl: Once the technology gets further ahead like right now you can also use brain computer interface devices that are external that tap into your visual cortex.
Cathy Hackl: And eventually it might go deeper and be able to like really think what you're, if you're living in memory, like recreating that. So potentially
Ariba Jahan: in the future. Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh yeah. I think you talked about that in your presentation. I just remembered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh wow. That is wild.
Ariba Jahan: It is
Cathy Hackl: a little. Scary for a lot of people for others. It's this is really interesting. it'll be kind of recreation of those memories. I will say that some of these technologies have already been used for things similar to that. I remember there was a project.
Cathy Hackl: I cannot remember if it was GM or who it was that did something with the insides of these older versions of cars. And they would take these two nursing homes and they would have the old men and the women put the headsets on and they would go into these old cars from their youth. And they were like, Oh my gosh, it looks just like that.
Cathy Hackl: I remember being at the drive through. I remember doing, the first time, I went on a drive or I remember whatever it was, like my dad driving this car. So it was things like that. I think are really interesting.
Ariba Jahan: Yeah, you talk about the fact that we are in this post smartphone era where maybe we're right at that transition point before we get to the points that you've been talking about, the way that we're using smartphones or the way that we participate in these immersive
The Future of Spatial Computing
Ariba Jahan: experiences like, how do you think all of this will evolve and what our virtual lives might look like in the next decade?
Cathy Hackl: The Internet will get more immersive, more engaging, more social. It'll be all around us. So it is an evolution, right? So I do envision that future. the internet is changing.
Cathy Hackl: whether we call it Metaverse or not, that's a totally different podcast interview. But but yeah, I think it'll be more immersive, more engaging. It'll be fun. That being said, there are challenges and issues that will arise. Obviously, I always say like, when we're talking about new computing platforms, we're talking about potential new geopolitical issues. So yeah it's going to be interesting it's not going to all be popcorn and unicorns. There's going to be challenges, but it will definitely be more immersive, more 3d, more engaging, more social and something that the kids are just going to grow up with. What I want people to understand is I'm not talking about kids.
Cathy Hackl: In VR headsets, stuck in VR all day in a trailer, like in Ready Player One. Now I'm talking about devices that are going to allow them, yes, to navigate the physical world because the physical world is beautiful, but it will make the physical world even more beautiful and it's going to have more information and yeah, it's going to change the way they interact with technology.
Ariba Jahan: I feel like what you're also saying is it's not about either one or the other, right? We're not going to enter a world where suddenly we are not doing any physical experiences. IRL will disappear or we're not going to have human interactions. like you said, it's going to be so ubiquitous that the level of integration between the physical and the digital and immersion into it.
Ariba Jahan: It's going to be a lot more seamless. And while we might need to name these things like metaverse AI, our children may grow up in an era where there is those labels are not necessary. Yeah, for them. Yeah,
Cathy Hackl: 100%. It's a strange world, right? But I think for them, it's gonna be completely normal.
Challenges and Ethical Considerations to be Mindful of
Ariba Jahan: You hinted at this a second ago where it's not going to be all rainbows and unicorns and there's going to be challenges can you talk a little bit about what are some potential challenges, whether it's ethical or access that you're thinking could happen on this journey?
Cathy Hackl: Yeah, I think there's going to be geopolitical issues. As to, especially when it comes to infrastructure and I say this a lot of times when I travel once you get out of the U S you realize that, Chinese influence is very prominent in the developing world. So like a lot of the 5g bases, a lot of the mobile phones, like Huawei we don't see it in the U S but a lot of developing countries use Huawei cloud or, or use the 5g basis.
Cathy Hackl: So if you think about, future devices that you're going to put on, you're going to see different things like. Whose metaverse are you going to access, right? Is it going to be, are you going to be forced to access the Western metaverse or, it's like the concept of splinter nets all over again, but in a broader scale, because it's geopolitical in that sense, but it's also very important and it's political in the sense that when whatever is in within earshot night side of you.
Cathy Hackl: Can be real estate, right? It already is with billboards and stuff, but this is a completely different level. Then you're talking about something that is going to impact every single constituent across every different municipality, city, country, you
Ariba Jahan: name it. I did not think about that.
Ariba Jahan: That has not crossed my mind. And that's so interesting. It also sets the stage for the government, for them to get more involved, not just in terms of policymaking or regulation, but also thinking about what will they have to have transformation around, what conversations are they not having right now that they need to start having, or maybe they are having it.
Ariba Jahan: I'm just not aware of those conversations, to facilitate some of those journeys. Thank you.
Cathy Hackl: think it's a little early, right? They're very focused on AI right now, rightfully so. but eventually these are going to be issues. Like when people ask me what keeps you up at night?
Cathy Hackl: I say virtual air rights among many things.
Ariba Jahan: Could you say more
Cathy Hackl: about that? Who owns the space in the air around you? What you can see, what you can hear, like those are big questions in the future,
Ariba Jahan: what do you think about, you know, how in a sandbox or in, a few other platforms you can buy land.
Ariba Jahan: And I know there's a lot of individuals plus brands who have gone in these platforms and bought land. What do you think will be the evolution of that?
Cathy Hackl: I think my views on it have changed. Like I'll be very honest. I was a realist. I had those virtual real estate holdings, right?
Cathy Hackl: The sandbox, the central lands, omnium space, you name it. I had all of them. I've divested myself from those. So I don't know I don't know where it's going to go. I hope it goes well for them. I have lots of good friends and, in the sandbox and I hope it goes well for them. I just don't know where.
Ariba Jahan: when we think about, best practices or safeguards, and we're talking about, the fact that geopolitical issues may arise and also just like the nuance of splinternets, I've I really liked that phrase. It definitely encapsulates it really well. What are some safeguards that people should start considering as they are I guess maybe implementing some of this technology or they're building it or when people are using some of this, I'll say one safeguard that you shared at a recent meeting that still stays with me is how you've incorporated a safe word in your family, right?
Ariba Jahan: So that's one safeguard that I think Any one of us could do in our household. So would love for you to elaborate more on that one. And plus add anything else you want to share.
Cathy Hackl: Yeah. What I had heard at the meeting is that the voice cloning technologies with AI have advanced.
Cathy Hackl: Leaps and bounds. It's crazy how easy they need literally three seconds of your voice to clone it. It's not perfect, but it can get pretty convincing, right? So what I said is eventually you could potentially get a call from your bank or you could get a call from from someone saying from your son or your child saying have been kidnapped.
Cathy Hackl: They want X amount of money, right? And you're like, is this true? Is it not true? It depends where you live, right? Those things are gonna be more common in certain places or what have you. if you put in a family safe word that is not anywhere virtually and they, okay, Johnny, give me your safe word.
Cathy Hackl: If they don't know it, then they're obviously not the real Johnny. If it's the real Johnny, he would be able to say the word and then you would know that it's truly them. So it's like a proof of life kind of thing. So gory, to say that, but but
Ariba Jahan: yeah, necessary. Yeah, totally necessary.
Cathy Hackl: So I think things like that, or I think you're starting to see that also with like. fake bank calls and it's gonna get so messy. It's pretty messy a bit I think for any company out there looking at whichever technology it is, especially AI Thinking what are the policies like have a corporate policy as to what tools they can and can't use what's acceptable, what isn't acceptable what information can you input into these systems, what can you share, what can't you share?
Cathy Hackl: So yeah, having clear policies, but also understanding that this is moving really fast. So you might have to be flexible and change your corporate standings in the next six months, so almost like a constant review of where your company stands on a lot of these.
Ariba Jahan: I think when you had shared that synthetic voice example at the meeting, I immediately thought about my mom, right?
Ariba Jahan: My mom is notorious for clicking on every single link that is texted to her and they're mostly spam, right? So I think about the fact that she is a perfect target for that because she can easily, I think one time she had gotten a spam call and she was like, Oh, my bank called or some official called and this was before the current era that we're in.
Ariba Jahan: So I worry about that. I also worry about what is going to be the evolution of digital literacy, for us so that we're equipping, not only like you and me, we're in the space, but also like our families and communities, you know.
Cathy Hackl: it's gonna be an interesting couple of years, for sure.
Cathy Hackl: Lots of good, but lots of
Ariba Jahan: bad, too. Yeah so I know that we've been talking a lot about what will happen in the future, a decade from now, and all of that like, let's narrow into the next six months. And we can also zoom out of spatial computing a little bit, and tap into your expertise in the metaverse, spatial computing gen alpha and all that.
Ariba Jahan: What do you think we should expect to see in the next six months are the future of our experiences and the way that we participate in them is shifting?
Cathy Hackl: there's a few things I think we're probably gonna get a lot more clarity around.
Cathy Hackl: blockchain hopefully with some of the potential issues, regulations, things that might come from the courts that will set precedent. So I think that's interesting. I think AI regulation, hopefully it'll become more serious in the US. Europe is ahead of the curve seeing some type of regulation that doesn't only protect the AI companies, but actually protects humanity. I think we're going to see that I think also as we look to next year and here in the United States is a. An election year and the use of technology, like creating some type of safeguard or being able to make sure that, if you're using AI in your campaign, you're using it responsibly.
Cathy Hackl: there used to be the first social media election, right? This is the first election where AI is available to anyone. So we'll
Ariba Jahan: have to see. So we talked about what is coming up next in the next six months. And you earlier talked about how it's so hard to keep up with it.
Ariba Jahan: Everything that's shifting and changing all the time. What are some things listeners can do to stay informed and adapt to the rapid changes in technology?
Ariba Jahan: What do you think they should be reading? What do you think they should be learning?
Cathy Hackl: Definitely, this podcast is a great resource. Follow me on LinkedIn for sure. Like I'm always sharing great content. I've got a great WhatsApp group. Unfortunately, I can't add more people because WhatsApp changed that.
Cathy Hackl: It's so sad. But I share a lot of great information in there. definitely staying and staying on top. I think both very honestly, Vogue business. Has done such a fantastic job of covering, especially like Web3, NFTs, virtual worlds. Megan McDowell there has done such a great job.
Cathy Hackl: And yeah, just connecting with different people. Allie K. Miller does great posts around AI. It's depending on what your interest is and everything. I have a new book that will come out next year on AI and spatial computing that I'm co authoring with Irina Kronin, the CEO of Infinite Retina.
Cathy Hackl: And that's going to come out next year in February. So very excited about that. So if AI and spatial computing are of interest to you, definitely keep your eye out for that. And yeah, I think you'll see a few things, a few extra things from me in the fall.
Ariba Jahan: Amazing. You already answered the question I was going to ask you next, which is what's next for you?
Ariba Jahan: A lot, like
Cathy Hackl: definitely to do a lot of work with AI, continuing to do a lot of work with companies, brands, and governments at Journey where we're doing great work. one of the things I hope to do this fall as well as do more work with a small group of women, like a select group of women helping them with their personal brands.
Cathy Hackl: So I'm hoping to open that at some point as a program where I can, might choose a few women to help them, teach them what I've done and help them through the ropes.
Ariba Jahan: Sign me up, please. I love it. I love it. Client number one. Yes. Test everything, every concept everything on me.
Ariba Jahan: I'm there. I Know that you mentioned a few names throughout the episode and I'm just curious, as we are. Wrapping up this section, who would you refer to as up next or who is someone that we should all be watching or learning from?
Cathy Hackl: Definitely Allie K. Miller for AI. I We worked together at AWS.
Cathy Hackl: I was not in her team. She was in the AI team. I was in a completely different team, but fantastic when it comes to AI. anD then someone that I just truly love doing work with and reading her posts, Zoe Skaman from Bodacious love her take on the future of community, future of fandom, she was part of the Gen Alpha report that we did, we we hopefully will be at South by Southwest on a Gen Alpha panel, so she's really interesting Lindsay McInerney as well, I think is brilliant from she used to be at AVM Bev now she's working with Armored Kingdom.
Cathy Hackl: So yeah, I think there's a lot of really amazing women doing great work.
Ariba Jahan: I'll definitely be linking all of them so people can find them easily. Thank you so much for sharing about your book too. I think that's going to be really resourceful. I'm ready to read it. I think I signed up for everything you put out there.
Ariba Jahan: Newsletter, sign up to know in your book, everything. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye.
Ariba Jahan: So the last section of this pod is a little bit of a rapid fire, so I'll ask a few questions and you can feel free to answer them quickly and share whatever you want to share.
Ariba Jahan: What's something you wish we were taught more in school?
Cathy Hackl: being rebellious in a good way, not in love, the bad rebellious at school kind of way.
Ariba Jahan: What helps you stay curious? My kids. A
Cathy Hackl: hundred percent.
Ariba Jahan: Tell me a little bit more about that. Just especially cause I'm a new
Cathy Hackl: mom. They're our best window into the future.
Cathy Hackl: And they'll ask you questions. You're like I need to educate myself about this new thing. Cause I have no idea. Yeah. Or like just watching them. Like I told you my daughter's playing code spark. I'm like, what are you doing? She's I'm playing with the AI.
Cathy Hackl: I was like, wait, what? Come here, let's talk. they keep it interesting for sure.
Ariba Jahan: That's so cool. If you could go back and give your 18 year old self one piece of advice, what would that be?
Cathy Hackl: Don't take no for an answer. Because when you tell, literally, I think my whole life, when people have told me no, I was like just wait here.
Cathy Hackl: Let me show you. Let me go and do this. You can't do that. If someone, not my parents, right? But someone like, you'll never succeed at this or hold my beer.
Ariba Jahan: I feel like the, conversation I needed in my life because I will say. A lot of the mindsets you've shared today. I haven't had that in my growing up at all.
Ariba Jahan: And so I feel like I'm doing a lot of unlearning and then reparenting myself. And I think a lot of the things that you've shared, reframes and mindsets are just perfect for me right now. So if you were to look back in your whole journey, and I love. The fact that you're such a bold experimenter, what was the cringiest or wildest moment you've had working in this space as a chief futurist or chief officer?
Cathy Hackl: I'll do wild I think while this moment, there were two, there are three, I'll say these three, these are the three that stand out for me getting invited to have lunch at the palace with the King of Spain. To talk about the metaverse. That was like, is that seriously happening?
Cathy Hackl: I thought it was like a, are you joking? Is this a scam? No. Definitely happened at Mobile world Congress. It was great. That was one. Getting invited by Tommy Hilfiger to New York fashion week to be front row at one of his shows, his return in New York fashion week and getting pulled into the VIP, literally hanging out like with all the A listers.
Cathy Hackl: It was crazy. I'm like, now I'm a what three A lister, that was, oh, it was such a fun experience. And I would say the third one is actually sitting down and actually having an opportunity to be at a breakfast and have breakfast with Anna Wintour. So I think those three just from last year are, I'm like, what is this my life? I'm like, wow.
Ariba Jahan: I didn't even know those could be a thing. Yeah.
Cathy Hackl: The fabulous life, but I worked hard to get there. So I'm just humbled and proud.
Ariba Jahan: And I feel like that makes me super excited about what wild moments may happen in the next 12 months.
Ariba Jahan: You never know.
Cathy Hackl: You never know. Yeah. I get the craziest calls and times I got flowers from Brooke Shields once long story, but yeah,
Ariba Jahan: mean
Ariba Jahan: the merging of different industries and ethos and spaces. It's pretty incredible. Cathy, thank you so much for making the time to have this conversation.
Ariba Jahan: You've already shared that people should come follow you on LinkedIn. How can listeners be useful to you?
Cathy Hackl: if there's women out there that this resonates with them, stay tuned. Cause it's hopefully I'll be offering some personal brand coaching for women in the future.
Cathy Hackl: So stay tuned.
Ariba Jahan: Awesome. Again, thank you so much. This has been truly an honor and so much fun. I loved all your stories. Really appreciate you.
Cathy Hackl: Thank you for having me.

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