Episode Notes:

How do you know when something is a trend or just hype? What trends should we even pay attention to right now?

In this episode I sit down with Webby Award-winning writer Matt Klein, a digital anthropologist and quantitative futurist with a decade of experience in trend forecasting, communications and marketing to dig into these questions.

We also go into how he recognized a gap in rigorous cultural analysis and began authoring articles on cultural observations, eventually writing for Forbes and starting his own newsletter. In our conversation we cover:

In this episode we cover:

(01:58) Matt's unconventional background spanning psychology, film, media, and advertising
(23:11) Meta trends analysis and identifying commonalities
(29:32) Concern about decline of public spaces and rise of loneliness
(32:00) Perspective on virtual worlds and the metaverse
(38:10) Information overload and determining what's real online
(45:12) Evaluating trends based on adoption momentum rather than hype
(42:47) We need more porn: patience, openness, receptiveness, and nuance

Throughout the discussion, Matt emphasized the need for trend analysts to incorporate diverse perspectives and data sources, highlighting the responsibility forecasters have in shaping potential desired futures. He leaves us a strong reminder that the future of culture is us, you and me, the everyday people, not some authority figures.

Referenced on the Episode:

Matt’s Metatrends Analysis

Matt’s Audience Capture

Institute of the Future

Future Laboratory

Guest Bio: Matt Klein

As a digital anthropologist and quantitative futurist with a decade of experience in trend forecasting, communications and marketing, Klein advises brands, the United Nations, investors, startups, journalists and non-profits on emerging social shifts and authors strategies for preferred futures.

A Webby Award-winning writer for his publication, ZINE, Klein’s insights have been featured in The Wall Street Journal, VICE and Forbes, where he served as a media critic covering the psychosocial implications of life online. Klein is also a speaker at SXSW, agencies, and universities including Yale and NYU, advancing cultural analysis with data and AI.

Linkedin | ZINE Newsletter | Website

Episode 02 - Hype vs. Momentum: Decoding Cultural Patterns w/ Matt Klein of Zine
[00:00:00] Matt Klein: For the longest time, those who were writing the future, were just those who held the pen. There's a responsibility for those who are studying culture to ensure that as many voices and opinions are at the table as possible, even if they're not sitting in the chair. By leveraging the data which exists, and that data could be media analyses, it could be social listening, it could be patents, it could be scientific papers, it could be film scripts, it could be menu items by ingesting all the data out there.
[00:00:34] Ariba Jahan: Welcome to Up Next in Tech, a podcast diving into emerging innovations and experiences beyond the hype through exclusive conversations with a billion people that are exploring the intersection of emerging tech, responsible innovation, and how we live, play, and interact. I'm your host, Ariba Jahan. My guest today is Matt Klein, a cultural theorist and strategist who looks for patterns in culture.
[00:00:56] Ariba Jahan: He's the head of foresight at Reddit and a Webby award winning writer for his publication, Zine. Klein's insights have been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Vice, and Forbes. In this episode, Matt shares his views on hype versus meaningful trends, how to really quantify culture, the responsibility of trend forecasting, and much more.
[00:01:17] Ariba Jahan: We get into the death of third places, information overload in the age of AI, and his hopes for more nuanced thinking. Let's dive in.
[00:01:26] Ariba Jahan: Matt, you're currently a cultural theorist, a strategist, and currently the head of global foresight and methods at Reddit. And you're a Webby award winning writer where you've got an amazing zine that shows the result of you studying technology and the unspoken trends defining our future.
[00:01:46] Ariba Jahan: Now, we know that this is not a career or content creation journey that existed about a decade ago, right? So can you tell us a little bit about your origin story and your journey to this.
[00:01:58] Matt Klein: Absolutely. So I think the, the current work right now, I mean, they're, they're really sexy ways of just saying, I look for patterns in culture.
[00:02:05] Matt Klein: I really think that's just kind of the bottom line. I didn't know that finding patterns in culture was really a job. If I did, I probably would have immediately have gone there going into undergrad. I was conflicted. I was either going to be a child therapist or a film director. It was one of the others.
[00:02:20] Matt Klein: Give you a coin flip. And it wasn't until I was taking courses in propaganda campaign strategy. Strategic communications, virtual worlds, et cetera. Then I realized that there was an overlap between my interests and that overlap or common denominator being the psychology of media or the ways in which new tools and platforms and features and apps were changing the ways in.
[00:02:40] Matt Klein: We were viewing ourselves, viewing others, communicating, expressing, dating, et cetera. I ended up completing a joint degree in psychology and film and media studies with a concentration in cyber psychology or the psychological implications. of our emerging technologies. my dissertation was essentially why and how we're using viral videos as tools for identity creation.
[00:03:03] Matt Klein: That work landed me at ad agencies that were just beginning to figure out or think about how do we use social platforms as means, to communicate for our brands or create resonance, fast forward. I've jumped from shop to shop, from creative to media. to market research. And throughout that time I was recognizing the missing role of culture.
[00:03:23] Matt Klein: There was a fascination on the consumer, the consumer research, the surveys, social listening, et cetera. There was an emphasis on the financial side of things, the market research, the competitive analysis, et cetera. But there was very little analysis in the middle. And that middle being culture, the weird, the sticky, the gray, the, the connective tissue in my eyes between bright markets and consumers.
[00:03:47] Matt Klein: And no one was really prioritizing that. so I found a couple of shops that were focusing on that. and fast forward, I recognize another missing role within cultural research or cultural intelligence, which was the role of data. The higher up you work with the C suite, the more likely you are going to be asked, well, can you quantify this?
[00:04:04] Matt Klein: Right? I share this story where we're presenting to these huge clients on the future of food, and we brought them goji berries and cactus as hot new ingredients. And they came back and they're like, well, which one is it? I'm like, what do you mean? Which one? Like, well, which one has the bigger market cap and potential and the inability to quantify these very messy, subjective things within culture.
[00:04:29] Matt Klein: I mean, it was necessary. We, we, we had to figure out how to do that. which landed me in my current role and, and, and what I'm up to right now, both professionally and I guess professionally outside of, of a nine to five, is find ways to quantify culture or create rigorous methodologies of trying to figure out, What's happening now, what does that mean for the next and what are the implications for the future and then ultimately help organizations make sense of that change so they can author, future proofing business strategies or more precisely preferred futures. that's the long short on the Matt Klein story.
[00:05:02] Ariba Jahan: Just thinking about what you just said, like quantifying, culture, when you think about that, and sounds like you've had quite a journey to this moment and then you've decided to kind of launch your own zine on the side.
[00:05:14] Ariba Jahan: I'm curious when you think about, quantifying culture, like what does that mean to you?
[00:05:18] Matt Klein: It means injecting a sense of objectivity. I think when it comes to studying culture, we have our own biases and agendas baked in. for the longest time, those who were writing the future, were just those who held the pen.
[00:05:33] Matt Klein: There is a responsibility for those who are studying culture to ensure that as many voices and opinions are at the table as possible, even if they're not sitting in the chair. By leveraging the data which exists, and that data could be Media analyses. It could be social listening. It could be patents. it could be scientific papers.
[00:05:52] Matt Klein: It could be film scripts. It could be menu items by ingesting all the data out there, querying it, pivoting it accordingly, we could have a more objective sense of what is happening within culture that would, acknowledge our own personal biases and blind spots that we would not necessarily, be mindful of if we weren't looking at data, right, you could do primary research and you could do ethnographies.
[00:06:16] Matt Klein: It's hard to scale that granted. There's downsides to all methods. That's just, you know, research one on one. That said, what's really interesting to me. And the opportunity here is that never before in history. We've been sitting on more data and simultaneously culture has never been the Moving faster or seemingly faster.
[00:06:32] Matt Klein: So the opportunity to connect those two, and to leverage the software and technologies, which exist to help us understand, cultural change in real time, to me is endlessly fascinating.
[00:06:43] Ariba Jahan: when you think about this journey and I know like when you capture it now, it feels like things make sense. And that's how it always feels when you tell the story. But I'm curious when you when you reflect back, what's some of the most uncertain moments in your career? And how did you navigate?
[00:07:00] Matt Klein: I don't think it always makes sense. I mean, it's still messy and ambiguous.
[00:07:04] Matt Klein: Maybe that's that that's good selling or positioning. I mean, I'll give you one really superficial example, which I think speaks to the importance of acknowledging contradictions or tensions that don't make sense. We were doing, research for an insurance client and they wanted to understand how people felt about going to the dentist.
[00:07:23] Matt Klein: They were trying to position their, their, their dental benefits for, Gen Z and we were doing social listening and we found, support for our hypothesis that when you went online to search how people were discussing The dentist it was overwhelmingly negative That made complete sense like, okay, well, how can we keep kind of pushing and prodding and probing until I put in the query my dentist and what we got back in return was overwhelming positivity and to me, it didn't make any sense. Why? Why is it that there was two extremes for the same exact thing until we recognize that, the, the key word there was the, the and my. The dentist was the experience going to the dentist, the formality of it.
[00:08:09] Matt Klein: While my dentist was the figure, the person, the individual, the experience that wasn't necessarily the dentist's chair. My dentist, the person who was behind the tools or the one who came at the very end, often good looking and smiling and et cetera. And what we found was within that tension. Was the nuance of how people approached their experience while they didn't necessarily like the journey of it that didn't necessarily mean that they didn't like the individual who is doing those things, and it's a very, very superficial example that in my eyes, the perfect example of two things happening in culture that make no sense on surface level observations until you hold them simultaneously.
[00:08:54] Matt Klein: Like, oh, wait, that That makes sense. We can hold both of these and oftentimes strategists feel so compelled to have to throw out one or the other. We can't have something that is, is gray. It has to be one or the other to tell a consistent story. But I think when it comes to cultural research and where data plays such an important role is allowing us to hold both of these contradictions simultaneously, because that is culture. Culture is messy. It's subjective. It's ever evolving. It is not binaries, but contradictions and tensions that inform one another. So I use this dentist example just as a superficial story, but I feel like those types of observations are popping up all the time. And the call to action for cultural thinkers is how do you hold both of these simultaneously and try to find that, that That's through line because that through line is the insight.
[00:09:44] Ariba Jahan: Yeah. It feels like there's so much more need to understand the nuances and consider for the nuances and understand like what's the underlying root of these nuances. And when, when do these observations play a role? So how do your parents describe what you do?
[00:10:01] Matt Klein: It's taken a long time. It's taken a long, long, long time.
[00:10:05] Matt Klein: there's been a lot of, uh, there's a lot of coaching there. They've gotten to the point where,
[00:10:10] Ariba Jahan: and you coaching them, right?
[00:10:11] Matt Klein: No, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. And that's, that's really what it is. It's gotten to the point where it's, that helps explain, things in culture for organizations that doesn't really, yeah, it doesn't really mean much to anyone who doesn't get it. Or is outside of that, they explain it quite well. I think the, the, the opportunity now is getting many other people, or, or their friends to, to figure out what exactly that means or why that's important for, for business, but that's a conversation for another time. That's a larger campaign.
[00:10:40] Ariba Jahan: I think my mom is still trying to figure out how to tell people what I do. I think so far she's gotten the fact that I sit in front of a computer, and that I work from home. The rest, it's, it evolves from conversation to conversation, she just finished being able to tell people what I actually studied in undergrad. So. Just a few more years progress for sure. So another rapid fire question? What's something that you feel like you just couldn't do without in your career? It could be anything. It could be like a routine. It could be a person that really helped you. It could be a service that you use or like an object that gives you
manifestation energy.
[00:11:16] Matt Klein: I've never been asked this before. I immediately go to, I don't know how I feel about this, but this is where my mind immediately goes. working out and in long distance cycling, for me, that is, it serves two purposes. One, it allows me to. Stop thinking. right. Going into that flow state that has nothing to do with the work.
[00:11:35] Matt Klein: for me, my mind's always going for better or worse. and just running, working out, riding a bike allows me to stop thinking sometimes. The other use case of cycling allows me to. let the thoughts kind of like simmer in the background, right? That's the quintessential, like taking a walk around the block.
[00:11:54] Matt Klein: and I found that like, if I read something or like I, I approach my challenge or problem, whatever it is, something that doesn't make sense, right? The tension, hop on the bike. it gets resolved somehow, just like not thinking about it. It's like the Chinese finger cuff, just like letting loose and like letting it work itself in the, in the subconscious or in the background. To me is a process that's been, quite reliable.
[00:12:15] Ariba Jahan: I love that response and I relate to it. I feel like when I work out other things get worked out inside my head. I love that. Um, and it's like, I like what you said about letting it sit and almost. Letting it, letting it marinate in your own head while you're doing something else. I guess, what happens when you're not getting enough of that in your life?
[00:12:35] Matt Klein: You don't want to know. It's clear. It's, it's, and I feel like it's, it's for a lot of people. It's, it's stress. It's feeling overwhelmed. It's the inability to think clearly. it's physical. It's right in the shoulders. It's in the back of the neck. it's very clear to me, when that happens. I think the, other kind of driver of that. Is like context collapse, like the constant, like window jumping, like from one tab to another, to messaging, to Slack, to a video, to an article.
[00:13:04] Matt Klein: it's an everyday occurrence, but it never really feels good and I'm still trying to work out that tension where you're trying to consume and do so much simultaneously. and then stopping yourself and you're like. Break slow. Just one thing at a time. finding those reminders or having that mindfulness is a difficult one but I feel like goes back to the, the long distance cycling. Had you integrate that, on like a smaller scale besides like an hour and a half bike ride. and rather just. a minute, 30 seconds to just take a breath. the timers, the, the alerts I've, I've tried it. Like once you're, once you're going, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to turn off.
[00:13:44] Ariba Jahan: Yeah. We all have those signals, right. That we can tell. Whether it's in our body or the way that we're reacting to things and responding to things that something is off. I want to talk about your zine. I, I noticed there's like in your zine, there's a letter from the, from the creator and it says like, this started as a hobby.
[00:14:02] Ariba Jahan: So, this zine went from a hobby and now it's a Webby awarded newsletter. You know, so I want to hear like, what made you create it? What made you keep going?
[00:14:11] Matt Klein: I mean, this goes back to the very beginning of my career where I was just frustrated that I would speak up in a meeting no one would do anything with it, or I was too intimidated to speak up in a meeting. And I had nowhere to put those ideas. So I just started writing them and they weren't necessarily about work itself, but rather observations within culture of something I was really passionate about. and I just started writing on medium and like four people were reading it maybe. and I just kept at it and kept at it and kept at it. And there was this compounding kind of snowballing effect. 10 people read it, 20 people read it. Someone finally shared something and it was picking up steam. fast forward a handful of years. I was doing quite well on medium that helped unlock an opportunity writing for Forbes, which was incredible.
[00:14:55] Matt Klein: Did I did a year and a half, a couple of years with that? and I was recognizing that there was this reversal of the figure in the ground. I wasn't necessarily writing. What I found most interesting, but was writing for virality or writing for what I thought more people wanted to read, and that was most clear to me in like headline writing, like you're writing the headlines for SEO and it had nothing to do with what the piece was itself.
[00:15:21] Matt Klein: And I, I noticed that that. It wasn't super fulfilling as much as I absolutely loved the pieces that came out of it. Decided to opt out of that and just start the newsletter. I mean, Substack was just starting. I wanted to almost reclaim my writing and I'd rather 20 people read it. and, and have that go to 20 friends and colleagues, than me trying to fight for an audience online that I didn't actually know.
[00:15:47] Matt Klein: So I was doing the same writing as I originally started just things that I thought was interesting. and sure enough, fast forward a couple more years and it compounded and grew and grew and grew. And I'm so fortunate. And I think and I still try to reflect on this on on a more consistent basis. But
[00:16:02] Matt Klein: I do think a little bit of the secret sauce there. Was not fighting for the audience and not writing for headline optimization or not fighting for what I thought people wanted to read, but rather what I thought was most fascinating and further using that writing as a tool for my own organization of thoughts and putting that on display was, I guess clearly of a value for others rather than kind of going out and fighting for it.
[00:16:30] Matt Klein: That said, right with that audience and with that award and recognition there, there still now is that pressure. I've written a little bit about this, this, this idea of audience capture.
[00:16:40] Matt Klein: How do you, maintain that artistic integrity when there are so many people now? I don't have all the answers, some, the first being just do what originally prompted you or started you. And if there's an audience, so be it, but you rather write for people who actually care than writing for, you know, Nobody or anyone who who shows up it's writing for yourself first and foremost and writing right doesn't have to be writing It's just creation and just interactions online. it's everything.
[00:17:11] Ariba Jahan: Yeah, it's really refreshing to hear you Speak your truth in this way, because we're in an era where we talk about KPIs, metrics, right? Like we know these things matter. And oftentimes we're talking about like, what is the roadmap here? What is the launch plan and all of that? And like you said, when you start thinking about it in that way, we start optimizing for what we think the market needs or where's the trend, what are people doing?
[00:17:36] Ariba Jahan: And that's not necessarily optimizing for your creativity and curiosity. And sounds like what you wanted to reclaim and get back to is what, what is Matt curious about? What, what drives Matt to create? and, that's really nice to hear from the beginning of our conversation. I think one big theme that came to me, is that you're very multidisciplinary. And being multidisciplinary as you grow and grow in your career, it can become hard. Like, can you talk a little bit about like, what does that look like now? How do you nurture that mindset?
[00:18:08] Matt Klein: I love this. I think it started from the very beginning. I mean, I, I got a liberal arts degree. I went to a liberal arts school, which was the quintessential horizontal approach to work. and there was fear of like, what is that specialty? How does that apply? How does film media studies in psychology ever have to do with marketing strategy in business?
[00:18:28] Matt Klein: I'd like to argue a lot of things. I still, think about that and it's not necessarily a fear, but knowing how fast things are changing. I'm like, what does this job or work look like in five plus years? At the same time, it also gives me. Confidence that multidisciplinary approach or liberal arts thinking is perhaps the greatest life raft of being able to apply or stretch in different ways during a time in which there is no one direct path.
[00:19:01] Matt Klein: I mean, literally. it didn't exist a month ago. Like this was the first role of its kind at my organization. to then try to imagine five years, 10 years, it's, it's daunting and scary, but I think to kind of more precisely answer the question without avoiding it too much, I think really what it is, or the, the, the solution or the, the life raft is really just curiosity.
[00:19:23] Matt Klein: This curiosity or openness, and it's not openness of like going with the flow, but like this flex, just adaptability. I think oftentimes there's this desire and maybe we'll weave this back to kind of like online writing or creating this desire for a specialist or for like a, this is my title. This is my bio.
[00:19:42] Matt Klein: This is my headline on LinkedIn. I mean, really the platforms. are incentivizing or instructing us just to pick one name, one label. I think what's really refreshing about Gen Z and yes, it's 70 million people, but one common attribute or desire, maybe this is just young people, but this desire to be a multi hyphenate or a polymath, this idea that I am not one thing, this experimentation of identity.
[00:20:10] Matt Klein: That to me is incredibly inspiring and refreshing that you don't have to just be one thing and we think about personal brands, look at consumer brands, right? Consumer brands have to adapt in order to survive. You just can't be the same brand forever. that's its own can of worms. But I do think there is room for play and experimentation fluidity in a moment where there's so much pressure to be just One thing, that permission is that coming really from anywhere?
[00:20:41] Matt Klein: I look for it. It's hard because it's kind of quiet. Maybe this, is, is moving a needle half an inch, but, yeah, it's something I think a lot about.
[00:20:50] Ariba Jahan: I've been wanting to ask you that question mainly because I'm coming to terms with my multi hyphenate and multidisciplinary self. Like I studied something completely different from what I do now.
[00:21:00] Ariba Jahan: And, I studied biomechanical engineering, went to med school, you know, went into products at startups and now innovation at a non profit. And I sometimes feel like this pressure to like rationalize those decisions, like I'm going to try to make it make sense. And I'm like, what if it doesn't have to make sense?
[00:21:17] Ariba Jahan: And it just adds to who I am. Right. I want to lean into a point that you just said about like, your role right now is. First of its kind, right? So when, when that happens, there's so much uncertainty. There's literally no one for you to follow. There's no real like job description per se. You're shaping that on your own can you lift the hood a little bit of what that feels like, right? Like that level of uncertainty and like figuring that out. What you've been showing, it's possible that you thrive in that space, but just curious, what's that like?
[00:21:49] Matt Klein: It's the best thing in the worst thing. I mean, the worst case it's There are no expectations. There are no guardrails. There are no KPIs. It literally has not existed before. You don't know if you're doing it. Good or not at the same time, that's the opportunity. There is, there is no comparison.
[00:22:09] Matt Klein: it hasn't existed before. that's not to say that right standards and expectations and success can't exist. Of course it does. but that free reign and, and, and green, white space, whatever, whatever color you want to use as nerve wracking. As, as exciting in that, like who, who fucking knows, like, who knows what comes next?
[00:22:29] Matt Klein: it's a, it's a, it's a hodgepodge of emotions. I wish I had more descriptive adjectives for, for what that feels like, but it's incredibly exciting and also, uh, incredibly nerve wracking in that there's no one before you. And it's up to you to have to then pave that for not just other people, but continue to reinvent for yourself.
[00:22:51] Ariba Jahan: And a year from now, how this role will evolve, your work will evolve. So that'll be a fun conversation to come back to.
[00:22:58] Matt Klein: I've got no idea. One day at a time, really.
[00:23:02] Ariba Jahan: Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. I feel like my job has changed literally year to year. And it's like part of been the nature of my role, and that's been really cool, too so let's talk about Metatrends. you know, when I saw your presentation, and I was like, wow, this is, this is awesome. the whole organization received your presentation so well. And I think, you know, the, the trends themselves are really thoughtful and intentional. And I'd love for you to like talk a little bit about. the meta trends, why don't you set the stage a little bit on what the meta trends analysis is and
[00:23:32] Matt Klein: So this started as an experiment about 6 years ago. I was recognizing all of the trend reports that were being published on an annual basis. at the time there was about.
[00:23:43] Matt Klein: I want to say like 30 that I can get my hands on. and as someone interested in the culture futurism, I'm like, Oh, maybe, maybe there's an exercise here in reading every single one, but more precisely calling out the commonalities between all of these. I was so curious that if 25 to 30 organizations thought that they had a glimpse into the future.
[00:24:03] Matt Klein: Did they all think the same way or see the same things coming? So I wanted to read every single one, cover to cover and then note the trending trends or the most frequently reported things that were being mentioned, which then became the meta trends, fast forward. I've made this an annual tradition.
[00:24:20] Matt Klein: And seeing over the span of those six years, how the Metatrends themselves have evolved, or in some cases, not evolved at all, it wasn't just an exercise in just seeing how culture was changing, but seeing how organizations themselves were approaching culture with their own methodologies or more often than not, lack of methodologies and what that just says about the state of cultural intelligence and organizations, trying to put their fingers on on the future and their own, interpretations and recommendations, et cetera,
[00:24:52] Ariba Jahan: how would you define the difference between like hype trends or like drivers when you think about trends analysis
[00:24:58] Matt Klein: So I think of the, the diffusion curve and the diffusion curve is, is used in a lot of things. adoption, et cetera. The, the diffusion curve is just a quintessential bell curve for anyone.
[00:25:10] Matt Klein: who's not seeing my finger making the shape of a bell curve. And on the left hand side we have Innovators. we have creators. We have musicians. We have those on the bleeding edge of culture. there is no prerequisite to be, an innovator. Anyone can be an innovator. throughout that curve, right at the very top, we have the mainstream.
[00:25:30] Matt Klein: We have the tipping point. we have the majority essentially. And then on the end of that bell curve on the right hand side, opposite to the innovators. Or the laggards, those who are the last to adopt something within culture. Those are, grandparents or those you would consider to be living under a rock, et cetera, as we think about a trend, or as we think about, a new technology, whatever it may be, it works its way through that diffusion curve left to right more often than not.
[00:25:58] Matt Klein: And as it goes through that diffusion curve, similar to a genetic gene or germ, um. This is a meme, right? As it works its way through, that diffusion curve, it sacrifices, potency for spread think of the pandemic or something of that nature. In other words, as a trend makes its way through more people, it's going to evolve in order to reach more people.
[00:26:21] Matt Klein: So the long winded way of getting at this answer, I like focusing on somewhere in between the innovators or those creating culture. And then those, that would be early adopters or the mainstream, because in that sweet spot, we have something that has enough momentum that will make its way through culture, but it's still early enough where we can activate, upon it.
[00:26:42] Matt Klein: If, if we're an organization, right before it reaches more and more people, the problem with studying something all the way to the left. Is that it's hype, right? It's it's so early and it hasn't reached enough people that we can't determine whether or not this meme, right? This idea, this fashion, this aesthetic, whatever it may be, will work its way, through culture.
[00:27:04] Matt Klein: We don't know if it has the staying power, the momentum, the energy, the interest, et cetera. so that would be my definition of hype. Something that is, fueled by just the innovators themselves or just Those who are super early, the more that adopt, uh, a given trend or idea, the bigger, right? It becomes that's where we get something from a micro trend or something that's hype to, a mega trend or a macro trend, et cetera.
[00:27:29] Matt Klein: The larger a trend becomes the bigger it is just within culture. I think that's, I'm repeating myself, but I repeat myself to say the larger trend becomes the more likely it is to then influence. Another trend, right? That then becomes the fabric or the operating system for something else to emerge. So at one point in time, the climate crisis was a micro trend.
[00:27:53] Matt Klein: It was something so small that so few people were discussing and, it was new. This is this is decades ago as it's grown as more people have discussed it as more people have acted upon it. as. Big as this thing has become and as bad as this thing has become that in itself has prompted and created New trends, say eco anxiety, whether or not we want to call that a trend in itself, where we're splicing hairs, the point being something like the climate crisis then becomes a driver or a catalyst for something else.
[00:28:28] Matt Klein: in this case, it could be. upcycling. it could be pre owned. so it and so forth. It gives birth to new ideas.
[00:28:36] Ariba Jahan: I think it start up businesses right now, right? We're seeing so much more entrepreneurship happen in climate technology and sustainability. Yeah.
[00:28:44] Matt Klein: Exactly right. And I think it's important to parse apart these, these hairs or split these hairs.
[00:28:51] Matt Klein: not just because it's, it's interesting to debate, but we can't understand our future if we don't have the language to actually discuss it or to navigate it. So I think it's worth investing in these taxonomies and these definitions and these diagrams because. Leveraging that allows us the leg up or the tools to then author preferred futures.
[00:29:12] Matt Klein: We can't create net new culture and solutions if we first don't know how to navigate it or explain it to others.
[00:29:18] Ariba Jahan: thank you for that breakdown. so when you think about the difference between what's, what's a hype, what's a trend and what's now becoming a driver to give rise and catalyze new, new micro trends, what are some trends that people need to pay attention to right now?
[00:29:32] Matt Klein: Hmm. So I think the caveat here is that one has bias within these
definitions that what is edgy or new to me, according to those creators are like, no, I've been doing this for so long. the one I'll, I'll maybe just give one a mindful of time. The one that is most exciting to me for better or worse, is the death of third places.
[00:29:53] Matt Klein: The third place being the place in between home and, and during a moment in which. Home is work. We now have like less than one place where we're looking for the now even like the second place. But the third place to me is really interesting because it not just speaks about, or it doesn't only speak, to our, our work conditions or, or habits.
[00:30:16] Matt Klein: But speaks to the larger loneliness epidemic as well. When so much life is lived online, when we look at, perhaps the hype of metaverse conversation, when we look at, uh, the loneliness crisis, we require third places to interact with others. and there are very few right now you have gyms.
[00:30:35] Matt Klein: Maybe social clubs are not really a thing. This is not a new concept, right? Bowling alone has been a thing, in academia for quite some time. The decline of bowling leagues, et cetera, that hasn't been rectified over the last few decades and it's only getting worse. and I think it's becoming even more glaring, today.
[00:30:54] Matt Klein: Post pandemic, and as more people look for belonging and community, especially in offline spaces as well, whether that be for dating or for male friends, et cetera, what do those spaces look like? And to me feels like one of the most significant opportunities in culture right now, especially for organizations or brands who can help spearhead or create those spaces with so many of them actually having retail footprints, in the first place.
[00:31:21] Ariba Jahan: Oh, I didn't think about that. About retail spaces like the fact that they already have. Spaces and real estate. How could they repurpose that to provide those spaces? That's interesting.
[00:31:32] Matt Klein: And it doesn't even have to be right. The store. I think some would argue that way too capitalistic or too self serving.
[00:31:39] Matt Klein: You can still rent out other places within cities, townships, I think everyone's so quick to put it online. Make it a zoom that defeats the purpose that's not solving what people are actually looking for. And then further, how do you engender a culture where it's not quote unquote, awkward to show up somewhere, uh, without knowing some, uh, someone.
[00:32:00] Ariba Jahan: you know, you mentioned the metaverse in this conversation and I know like there's, there's a mixed bag, right? Like there's a spectrum of what metaverse experiences mean, who's using it, who's activating in it. Through your lens, like what role do you think the metaverse plays right now versus what it can play in the future
[00:32:17] Matt Klein: as a Solely personal POV. I'd argue that we already had it. It's called the internet The internet in itself is our immersive online destination. We play there bet there. We watch there. We listen there. We hang out there. We game there. I mean, we are here. Exactly. We're doing it right now. so I'm, I'm quite confused what makes this any different than what this larger vision is.
[00:32:44] Matt Klein: I think more precisely what people are really discussing are new virtual environments that are more 3d. they're more, associated with, um, physicality, in other words, motion, sensing or enabling our other senses, touch, smell, et cetera. I think what really people are interested are new economies for better or worse.
[00:33:06] Matt Klein: That's really what I think people are interested in. And then further, play, this idea of a space to play and not necessarily do work. I'd argue again, there's plenty of play online, but you take those elements together and kind of dial them up to 11. I think that's what people are imagining. But again, what I'd argue is that it's kind of already here.
[00:33:25] Matt Klein: It's not a net new thing. My hot take is what I think would attract people to those virtual spaces is not things that they could do in this reality. In other words, no one wants to work in a space that is tethered to. Thank you. Something that's boring, like work. I think what, an exciting future, for better or worse, whether we want this or not, in a quote unquote metaverse, experience environment is more akin to a grand theft auto than it is virtual working, right?
[00:33:54] Matt Klein: Because that allows people to experiment not with just identity, but experiences as well that are so untethered to this reality. That's where I think gaming plays such a large role rather than, right, again, shopping in a Metamorphis. It's called an online store. I don't know why that has to be more immersive.
[00:34:14] Matt Klein: Let me purchase my thing and get out.
[00:34:15] Ariba Jahan: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right? The concept of having a digital twin in the metaverse and then being able to try on clothes. But, you know, there's two types, right? There's the digital twins where people are thinking about, How do I... Embody a persona or embody something that I actually don't look like so then I can like live out my curiosities like maybe I want to shave off my head, but I won't do that in real life, but I'm going to make my digital twin have that right.
[00:34:42] Ariba Jahan: There's that version and then there's also like I want my digital twin to look as close to me in real life as possible. So then I'm like trying on different outfits and etc. And I think like what I'm hearing from you is like the utility factor of it all right like if you're yeah, Doing it for play.
[00:34:59] Ariba Jahan: That might look different versus if you're doing it for, the practicality of buying an item that I'm going to actually wear in the physical world. And that might be a different type of case.
[00:35:08] Matt Klein: Yeah. And then further, though, what I'd argue, though, is that what you've just explained arguably we've been doing for the last decade on on an instagram, right?
[00:35:16] Matt Klein: That is a digital twin. Is that actually me? Right? No, it's a manicured version of a persona that I want people to think I am and there have been negative externalities there that we haven't enjoyed. So to think that we want to do that and keep doing that, we've been doing it and a lot of people don't like it.
[00:35:33] Matt Klein: Yeah.
[00:35:34] Ariba Jahan: Yeah. Yeah. it's, it's definitely interesting. I'm curious what will happen. I feel like, With certain, with certain worlds, the experience is still, you know, a little, little clunky, and it's not as, uh, seamless as obviously, like, in real life. So I think as we see the technology change, I'm really curious about, like, what'll happen, I think. I haven't found a world where I want to hang out for a long time yet. I think I'm curious if any listener out there, if you love hanging out in the metaverse, please let me know where and why. I'd love to know. I think one use case that I never thought about that recently a friend told me about, and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it.
[00:36:11] Ariba Jahan: they talked about They have a few friends who are chronically homebound, and they're not able to leave the house, especially because for many individuals, COVID isn't actually over and the metaverse, you know. Maybe we don't need to say metaverse, but let's just say these immersive worlds, right? Where they're able to, be more than, this two dimensional, like, being.
[00:36:33] Ariba Jahan: That's opened up a new way of engaging for them that they haven't been able to engage in for the last, like, Many years because they're chronically homebound and that's what made me think about like your point around Will there be a redefining of what these third spaces look like right and and it may look different and there's gonna be a lot Of experimentation whether it's digital or physical But anyway, that's that's like one thing that I haven't been able to stop thinking about and it's just like a use case I Just never occurred to me.
[00:37:00] Matt Klein: I'll one up that. I don't think it's the redefinition of just spaces, but the redefinition of companionship as, as well. I mean, there's a lot of hype, at the moment of, AI bots, et cetera. That's not new though. nursing homes, for quite some time have been giving, elders, robotic seals or robotic pets, which provide companionship and, and, and purpose the ethics behind that. are debatable. It doesn't work. Yeah. Is there anything wrong with that? If it's working symbol debate that maybe a real person would be a better substitute. A real person doesn't scale like a robotic seal can. so while there are definitions or redefinitions of just. spaces and companionship. I think it also behooves us to remember like, what do we actually want or what is that preferred future?
[00:37:47] Matt Klein: Not necessarily what we can do because what we can do is not always the answer. And that's not dismissing, right? The immersive experiences or the seals. but I think there's a, there's a distinction there.
[00:37:58] Ariba Jahan: No, no, I hear that. I hear that And so what is a trend that is it? frightening you that you're like, I am not loving that. This is a meta trend that this is happening.
[00:38:10] Matt Klein: I'll combine two ideas that I'm like still workshopping in real time and I've been spoken to them aloud.
[00:38:16] Matt Klein: So maybe this is the first time, maybe we'll get somewhere. Um, it's somewhere in between context collapse and content overload or infobesity, this idea that, um, as we spend an increasing amount of time online, we are drowning in information, drowning in content, not just podcasts, newsletters. TV shows, films, books, news articles, cetera.
[00:38:39] Matt Klein: but when we, we begin considering the outputs of generative AI, we'll no longer have the ability to differentiate what is human created versus computer created, what that means for our sensemaking. Is quite concerning. And then further the mental anguish between, separating those two things, it's not a matter of like, Oh, is the Pope wearing the jacket real or not?
[00:39:02] Matt Klein: Who cares if it's real or not, but I'm focused on is. The debate that is the the ripple effect and the division that comes from the debate if that content is legitimate or not. And in a moment in which content is absolutely drowning us. and we can't keep up. I'm very interested in. The, treading amongst all of this information and news and fact and fiction and the anguish, and energy or human processing power it takes to navigate through it, that to me is endlessly fascinating.
[00:39:36] Ariba Jahan: just when you describe all that, I got anxious, right? I just started thinking about that. How quickly we scroll right and then put our phone away to then move on to that call to then move on to that email. Right? And then the fact that there is no time to distinguish. Like, wait, did I read something that's real or was that fake?
[00:39:56] Ariba Jahan: Right? And then being able to then hop on a zoom call and you're making small talk and you're like, Oh, what did you read today? And I'm going to regurgitate what I just saw that I don't actually know. Was it real or not? And now I've spread it. Okay. To the next conversation,
[00:40:08] Matt Klein: exactly. And for Gen Z or younger demographics, alpha, et cetera, who are just growing up seeped in it.
[00:40:15] Matt Klein: The implication is, well, we'll just throw media literacy at them. The downside of media literacy or getting people to question what's around them is you're normalizing skepticism, which has its own negative externalities as well. In other words, you're teaching people to question every single thing around them, which I don't think is good.
[00:40:35] Matt Klein: Think, is entirely good either that you say more. In other words, we're in a moment in which, institutional trust is already faltering. And as more content and information is getting out there, you tell people or instruct both younger generations, older generations as well will question it. Question whether this thing is real or not, right?
[00:40:56] Matt Klein: We we've seen what happens when people do the research, when you do the research, you come up with your own answers or a piece of content that supports. We're in a moment where you could create proof of anything. You can make anyone say anything. You could clone voices. It's the photoshop of video. It's AI generated, it's anything.
[00:41:14] Matt Klein: So the instruction or the safe haven as well, pause and slow down, do research and question it. But that just leads us back to the same place of trying to still navigate it. So I go back to this metaphor that's just like treading and just spinning wheels and navigating. Which brings us, I think, maybe optimistically to something that I'm incredibly excited about, which I think, in light of all that anguish, the one thing that has proven quite well as a means of authentication.
[00:41:41] Matt Klein: It's just in person, real, live events. That's the one thing that, is not questionable. Being here together, live, in the same room, watching my lips move, how does that scale? It doesn't, and that's the point of it. So, as a member of Team Human, I'm very
excited for the re emphasis on being live. Together, holding hands again,
[00:42:06] Ariba Jahan: I mean, what you're talking about, like there's, it's kind of like, there's a little bit of unlearning that needs to happen.
[00:42:12] Ariba Jahan: Right? So in the beginning, we talked about how, like, for you to reclaim your own writing and your own inspiration and curiosity, you have to say like, okay, let's put KPIs and all these SEO stuff aside. Right. and then here, we're also talking about like, not everything. Okay. Has to scale, not like, you know, and I think it's just kind of like, what has become best practices in our industries, you know, it's okay to maybe like put certain best practices where they belong and not let them be in every single space. Right?
[00:42:42] Matt Klein: Exactly. Right. maybe we'll, we'll land on this. Um, the acronym that I keep on coming back to, is what we need more of is porn. We need more porn. Uh, we need more patien ce We need to slow down. We need more openness, right? Receptiveness to, to others. We need more reflection, self examination, examination of others, and we need more nuance.
[00:43:04] Matt Klein: We need more tensions and, and cultural graze. I can't think of another, acronym there. but those are the four things that perhaps are the themes of our conversation, but also things that as someone who studies culture, concerningly missing.
[00:43:18] Ariba Jahan: that leads me to this pointer on manifestation that you, that you talk about in your writing, you were talking about how, like, with all these trend reports being created, sometimes that actually leads to manifestation of certain trends. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
[00:43:33] Matt Klein: Yeah. So these reports are, a snake eating its own tail you create a report on the metaverse. The Metaverse is seemingly now a thing when you have 50 plus reports reporting on the same thing. It is now seemingly a thing that prompts investments. It prompts creation, adoption, etc.
[00:43:52] Ariba Jahan: Creates new departments for getting created, right?
[00:43:54] Matt Klein: Yes, exactly. Right. So with that, we have to recognize the snake eating its own tail, but further our responsibility within that space. system that the materials in which we put out into the world, especially within trend reports, have significant top down ripple effects or, or implications or cascading effects is what I was trying to get at and for that reason, there's a, both a responsibility and an opportunity. To seed preferred futures or this manifestation, it's not a matter of reporting on something that we don't actually want to see. We can do that But while also seeding in something that we do want to see or what a better version is Or to further question the thing that we're even reporting on In the first place, allowing people to come to their own opinions or debates, to interrogate what they're seeing that's compared to just putting out.
[00:44:46] Matt Klein: The metaverse is a thing. Go invest in this without any questioning, without any pause or without even asking. Do we even? want this thing rather than just claiming it to be true. I've been reading trend reports and they mentioned my own writing within it. And that to me is an eye opening experience where I recognize the role in which I just one person plays within that system.
[00:45:11] Ariba Jahan: so I love this point around like the responsibility. Right, if you're going to create white papers and trend reports that other people are reading and using as guidance in terms of what they do, what does? ethical responsibility look like for culture, trends, analysts, and all of that?
[00:45:27] Matt Klein: Firstly, it's methodologies. It's not just saying something. It's having a rigorous methodology. That methodology can be qualitative. It could be quantitative. But reflecting on what that methodology is, which brings us to the more important bit within that methodology should be diverse voices, representative voices of who you're actually speaking to.
[00:45:48] Matt Klein: The problem with these trend reports is that it's middle, middle, upper class consumers. That's not the population. That's not who's actually driving culture forward. so it's rigor, it's diverse perspectives, it's risk being unafraid to discuss something that may not already be a thing in culture in the first place.
[00:46:09] Matt Klein: I think one of the reasons you get a metaverse or metaverse esque adjacent concept is because you've already seen other people talk about it. And that's how you get right hype before, those three to me, are the most, important to de bias, or not just de bias, but, you know, interrogate the, the system and shake it a little bit.
[00:46:28] Ariba Jahan: Who would you say does that really well? Like writes reports with diverse perspectives. They interrogate, they're not afraid to put attention on things that are not already a thing, and maybe there's no one organization or one report that does that, but would love a few recommendations if you've got any.
[00:46:45] Matt Klein: It's a tough one. The fact that none immediately come to mind to me is quite telling and if anything. The opportunity or the white space. I think, the essence of it comes from, uh, radar, which I know you're, you're, you're adjacent to the, the Dow, which I think has the intention of, collecting diverse voices and doing this bottoms up approach of a futures work or trend forecasting that isn't necessarily tops down, you know, white men in a boardroom. it's hard to point to a single organization that is, is, is scaling that out, which again is, is the opportunity.
[00:47:22] Ariba Jahan: Yeah. I, I get that. I mean, I, I, I asked that question because selfishly I'm like, Ooh, who does that? I would love to know. Cause I, I don't think people broadly talk about the methodology behind their trend reports. I think, You can find out who they're working with and all of that, but not a lot of, perspective there. So, we are Shifting closer and closer to the time, so I'm curious, you know, we've talked about so many different topics today, Matt, for anyone that's listening and found different parts of this conversation interesting, and they want to explore more.
[00:47:53] Ariba Jahan: What should they do? Like, what should they do or check out? If they want to get more into any of the topics you've touched on.
[00:47:59] Matt Klein: this is the biggest punt of an answer, but to go outside, it's so funny. Like we talk about experiencing culture or like go, go touch grass, which I think is necessary, but experiencing culture isn't, you know, going to Vietnam or like going to the MoMA experiencing culture is like walking outside and people watching at a cafe or going into Target and just.
[00:48:24] Matt Klein: seeing what's in a target. it's speaking to Uber drivers. It's speaking to teachers. It's speaking to those with opinions that are different than your own, that are closer to culture than working class professionals whose job it is, is to study culture because they're not necessarily culture itself.
[00:48:42] Matt Klein: and further to, to interrogate. To look at the other side, the, the, the inverse of observations, it's to look at the dark side or the backside of a lot of these trends. and then further, it's looking at the things that are in between the cracks. the biggest learning for me from this Metatrend exercise was that the Metatrends are not the final product.
[00:49:03] Matt Klein: The Metatrends are, yes, what, what everyone has deemed to be culturally relevant. That's the starting point. what we really have to do next is look at what's not discussed what's in between the cracks. What's being being created on the bleeding edges that haven't made its way into the meta trends yet.
[00:49:19] Matt Klein: there is no one place or space or person, but rather. that's really just everywhere else. That's the biggest punt of an answer. but I don't think it's an authority. again. It's it's out there. It's it's up to everyone else to find it and to. Amplify it and, and, and find support and in a voice as to why this is important, uh, within culture.
[00:49:41] Ariba Jahan: I love that answer. , like get out, don't just read about it, get out and experience it. for anyone that is trying to, learn more about future thinking and strategic foresight, like Do you know of any resources that you can point them towards?
[00:49:54] Matt Klein: There are two programs which I've been a part of, which, I've enjoyed. One is, hosted by the Institute of the Future. Another is the Future Laboratory out of the UK. there are plenty of free resources online. there's plenty of books. There's plenty of guides. There's plenty of meta guides where people have collected things. I wouldn't link to one, but I would say that as someone who's interested in this work, not to view any of those answers as the law, right?
[00:50:19] Matt Klein: No one has the authority or the, the rule book on how to approach this work. Culture is messy, subjective, ambiguous. in nature. So to approach it in a single way is a contradiction. So as one begins this journey or continues their journey in this space as I do myself, it's approaching it with skepticism and interrogation of what do I like and what do I what I don't like and not just having the opinion, but reflecting why I have that opinion and why is an alternative better and supporting that.
[00:50:52] Matt Klein: And Further sharing that with others to keep the conversation going and allowing this practice to continue to flourish. Especially with diverse voices,
[00:51:01] Ariba Jahan: it's interesting, like even hearing you explain that, makes me think about the rigor that goes into almost forming your point of view and forming your analysis and documenting it in a way where you, the documentation in itself is forcing you to figure out like, wait, what do I think about it? What are the questions that comes to mind for me? And then by sharing it, what you're doing is you're inviting other people into that process to see like, Does anyone else agree? Like, what do you think? And that in itself can allow more diverse perspectives to come into your ethos. that's cool. So, up next. So what do you think is up next for us? As you are a cultural anthropologist, and you think about our relationship and utility of technology and how that impacts the way we build, create and play.
[00:51:46] Matt Klein: I'm gonna, I'm gonna. Connect a few of our dots that we've mentioned. I think what's up next is, is a slowing down. It's a disconnection. It's, it's an untethering, from, a mess that we're, we're trying to navigate and, and tread within. ideally it's more, touching grass and more long bike rides. That to me, is an exciting future. And one with, a lot of in person events and physical zines, and things that we get to hold and touch, um, and, and feel.
[00:52:15] Ariba Jahan: it's refreshing to hear this. I convinced myself during the pandemic that I don't like people. And I think recently I went to my first IRL conference in years and I was like, Oh my God, I love people. I love meeting new people and connecting and, and I think you're right. I'm excited to see that come up next. who would you refer to as up next? Who is someone that we should all be watching and learn from?
[00:52:40] Matt Klein: I don't think it's a single individual. But one another, right? It's literally listening to other people, what they have to say, right? Going back to, I swear I need to find a better, uh, a metaphor or acronym.
[00:52:51] Matt Klein: It's going back to porn, right? It's, it's the patience with others and those who we don't agree with. It's the openness, allowing them to, to share voices and perspectives that, we typically wouldn't seek out. It's the reflection of why we like it or where we don't like it or where we, we agree or don't agree.
[00:53:08] Matt Klein: And it's the nuance and being able to hold multiple perspectives. I don't think it's a single authority. ideally it is from Uber drivers. It is from teachers. It's, it's from kids, high school students, voices that we typically wouldn't look to, as sources or authorities on culture. Because at the end of the day, that is culture.
[00:53:24] Matt Klein: It's, it's each of us. So if we're to better understand what happens next in future, scenarios or within culture, it's not single reports or individuals. It's, it's a one another.
[00:53:35] Ariba Jahan: I love that. Okay. So, so Matt, where can listeners find you?
[00:53:40] Matt Klein: I'm everywhere online as Klein, Klein, Klein. That's K L E I N, K L E I N, K L E I N. the story there was I was trying to create my Twitter handle. Klein was taken, then Klein, Klein was taken, and the only one left was Klein, Klein, Klein. So it's Klein, Klein, Klein on Twitter, LinkedIn. my website's Klein, Klein, Klein, or zine, Z I N E, dot Klein, Klein, Klein.
[00:54:03] Ariba Jahan: I'll link to all of this in the show notes. Um, Matt, thank you so much for making the time for this conversation. I, it was everything I expected and more. It's been a blast. I'm so grateful that we met and I'm so grateful to have your story and your work and your point of view is shared on this.
[00:54:20] Matt Klein: Um, absolute pleasure. Thank you.
[00:54:23] Ariba Jahan: That's it for today's episode for Up Next in Tech. I'm Ariba Jahan and my guest today was Matt Klein. Thank you for joining us for this conversation today. If you liked what you heard, be sure to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify to help more people discover the show. Really appreciate you joining us today and be sure to hit subscribe, leave a comment and come back next week so we can keep exploring what's up next in tech and shape our collective future together.
[00:54:50] Ariba Jahan: Until then, stay curious.

🙏 LEAVE A REVIEW

If you enjoyed listening to this episode, then please leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts and a 5-star rating on Spotify! Thank you so much for helping us reach more listeners and viewers.

🔗 CONNECT WITH ARIBA JAHAN

Instagram | Linkedin | Twitter/X | Youtube

🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST

Want to go beyond the hype of emerging tech and dig into the realities, creative possibilities and responsible considerations behind innovations like Artificial Intelligence, Augmented Reality and Blockchain?

Join me, Ariba Jahan on Up Next In Tech for conversations with product experts, creative technologists, scientists and industry leaders to unpack what it’s really like to work in nascent fields shaping how we live and interact.

Whether you want tactics for your own journey or just inspiration from those leading the way, join us and let's envision the future we want to build together.